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Author Topic: Sigma DP Quattro  (Read 140170 times)

capital

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #200 on: July 04, 2014, 08:27:50 pm »

Perhaps some arm chair observations, but on the URLd link at http://i.imgur.com/Gn41FOa.jpg

seems to show some color moire in the distant building curtains to the right adjacent to the floating barge crane.

The second closest building with black horizontal bars seems to be showing perhaps the some color moire at a lower frequency while at the frequency of the black bars it seems to be just luminance moire.


not quite sure the relevance given this image is not full size. Is there a full resolution version available?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:20:05 pm by capital »
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mjrichardson

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #201 on: July 05, 2014, 03:19:56 am »

Bernard

The black and white shot is superb. Also sorry to here about the Otus, my suggestion is not to drop it!

Mat
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palpman

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #202 on: July 05, 2014, 05:29:55 am »

I'm not convinced by the samples of the Quattro I've seen so far. I agree with Hulyss that what makes the Merrills unique is the film-like rendering, with their intriguing and atypical color rendering. By applying some basic filters, the photos can look like medium format film shots, which is quite exceptional (e.g. see selfie below, taken with DP2M and processed using Color Efex Pro).

It seems like Sigma wanted to improve camera speed and iso performance with the Quattro sensor due to complaints from impatient and spoiled consumers, but this is wrong. It is not a purely direct image sensor any more, and that's disappointing. I don't think I will buy the Quattro, but a DP1M for 400 Euros instead to complete my Merrill collection. I've learned how to live with the quirks and in the end it is also what makes this camera unique: if you develop the dexterity to use it properly it is an amazing and unique tool.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #203 on: July 05, 2014, 06:10:51 am »

Bart, the top layer is blue-weighted. The second layer is much closer to luminance. Thus, without assumptions about the way spatial frequencies of the luminance and chromaticity of the original scene vary, is is not possible to "develop" a colorimetric RGB image with implicit luminance at the resolution of the top layer.

Hi Jim,

I agree that the top layer doesn't strictly record Luminance, that's why I said "The 'top layer' of the Foveon Quattro sensor captures mostly a monochrome image, good for luminance resolution." Good is to be understood as useful, but not accurate. I know it is relatively Blue weighted in sensitivity, but Blue contributes very little to the image's Luminance component (Blue is typically weighted as contributing 7.2% to total Luminance).

So it still makes a nice, not accurate (because overweighted in Blue and Red) but nice, substitute for Luminance from which a useful contribution to the other channels can be calculated. Blue wavelengths are also relatively the least affected by diffraction, and the top layer exhibits the least diffusion/scatter.

Cliff Rames made a nice simulation that shows how the top channel can be (ab)used to copy its high spatial frequency signal to the other layers, resulting in only a bit of inaccuracy at sharp edge transitions but visually still acceptable.

Quote
The top layer has its peak at a wavelength that plays almost no part in calculating luminance from spectra.

In all of the above, I am defining luminance as the Y component of 1931 CIE XYZ.

Correct, colorimetrically it is not the same, but then again it's still useful enough. As Clif said, it "might work because it is known that high-frequencies in natural images are highly correlated among the RGB channels."

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:50:57 am by BartvanderWolf »
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eronald

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #204 on: July 05, 2014, 07:22:53 am »

Hi Jim,

I agree that the top layer doesn't strictly record Luminance, that's why I said "The 'top layer' of the Foveon Quattro sensor captures mostly a monochrome image, good for luminance resolution." Good is to be understood as useful, but not accurate. I know it is relatively Blue weighted in sensitivity, but Blue contributes very little to the image's Luminance component (Blue is typically weighted as contributing 7.2% to total Luminance).

So it still makes a nice, not accurate (because overweighted in Blue and Red) but nice, substitute for Luminance from which a useful contribution to the other channels can be calculated. Blue wavelengths are also relatively the least affected by diffraction, and the top layer exhibits the least diffusion/scatter.

Cliff Rames made a nice simulation that shows how the top channel can be (ab)used to copy its high spatial frequency signal to the other layers, resulting in only a bit of inaccuracy at sharp edge transitions but visually still acceptable.

Correct, colorimetrically it is not the same, but then again it's still useful enough. As Clif said, it "might work because it is known that high-frequencies in natural images are highly correlated among the RGB channels."

Cheers,
Bart

I think some experimental ground truth will be welcome.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:24:46 am by eronald »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #205 on: July 05, 2014, 07:46:03 am »

I think some experimental ground truth will be welcome.

Hi Edmund,

I agree. Donations of a Quattro (preferably DP3) will not be rejected. ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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eronald

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #206 on: July 05, 2014, 12:06:07 pm »

Hi Edmund,

I agree. Donations of a Quattro (preferably DP3) will not be rejected. ;)

Cheers,
Bart

why not just sign up for a loaner unit?
That way you get one to torture for free ...

Edmund
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palpman

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #207 on: July 05, 2014, 12:43:57 pm »

I've found this on the interwebz:

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/lens_test_quattro/dp2q4dp2m_f28.jpg

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/lens_test_quattro/dp2m4dp2q_f28.jpg

Looks like the Q has more resolution but less contrast in the colors. The foliage looks mushy on the Q shot.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 12:46:38 pm by palpman »
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Hulyss

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #208 on: July 05, 2014, 03:37:07 pm »

I'm not convinced by the samples of the Quattro I've seen so far. I agree with Hulyss that what makes the Merrills unique is the film-like rendering, with their intriguing and atypical color rendering. By applying some basic filters, the photos can look like medium format film shots, which is quite exceptional (e.g. see selfie below, taken with DP2M and processed using Color Efex Pro).

It seems like Sigma wanted to improve camera speed and iso performance with the Quattro sensor due to complaints from impatient and spoiled consumers, but this is wrong. It is not a purely direct image sensor any more, and that's disappointing. I don't think I will buy the Quattro, but a DP1M for 400 Euros instead to complete my Merrill collection. I've learned how to live with the quirks and in the end it is also what makes this camera unique: if you develop the dexterity to use it properly it is an amazing and unique tool.



Yes, happy to see I'm not alone in the boat. Sorry I didn't answered you ... I've got tones of work and no time to answer half of my mails :/ But you know you are welcome in my home to seek the light with true foveon. So much hard work actually that I'm submerged :)
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capital

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #209 on: July 05, 2014, 04:13:40 pm »

I've found this on the interwebz:

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/lens_test_quattro/dp2q4dp2m_f28.jpg

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/lens_test_quattro/dp2m4dp2q_f28.jpg

Looks like the Q has more resolution but less contrast in the colors. The foliage looks mushy on the Q shot.

Hi palpman, I compared them side by side, the Q seems to have some mushy areas in the periphery of the scene that the Merrill does not. I am not sure if this is down to a bad lens or missed focus point though, as there is no mention of this in the links.

Looking at the exif data, the Merrill was underexposed 1/3 a stop relative to the Q, which might give it more apparent contrast. The other thing to note in the exif that both are shot at F/2.8. It could be that the Q does not perform as well, or this particular copy is poorer wide open.

Also, Hulyss, do you have an example of the mush of the Q relative to the Merrill you are referring to in something you captured?


The more I look at the two images, I think there is a defect in the Q's corner/edge performance wide open, as a crop from near the center shows absolutely zero mush in the foliage, grasses and gravel and is clearly showing more detail in those color zones. (see below)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:25:55 pm by capital »
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Hulyss

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #210 on: July 05, 2014, 06:56:41 pm »

Just have a look on the trees on the balcony and you will see what I mean.
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capital

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #211 on: July 05, 2014, 08:15:45 pm »

Hi Hulyss, I am not sure where I should be looking, are you referring to the crop I posted or some place else in the original photo, though do not see any obvious place you might be referring to. 
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palpman

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #212 on: July 05, 2014, 08:42:13 pm »

I can also see some mushyness in the foliage in this pic from the Quattro: http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/sigbura/2014/0626/img/01_DP2Q0287.jpg

PS: no worries Hulyss, there'll be other opportunities! Hope all is well.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:44:22 pm by palpman »
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capital

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #213 on: July 05, 2014, 09:20:12 pm »

Hi Palpman, that Sigma provided photo is poor with regards to bottom half of the image, the almost water color rendering of the foliage is Fuji X-trans like.

Not sure if this is down to bad processing or something else, especially, given that I have seen an okay rendering of foliage in one example you showed earlier (center frame only) and now this rendering, I am kind of scratching my head on this one.
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palpman

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #214 on: July 07, 2014, 05:19:22 am »

Just ordered a DP1M for 350 euros  ;D . In my opinion, the Merrills are becoming legendary cameras.
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Farsh

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DP1M
« Reply #215 on: July 07, 2014, 07:04:20 am »

Just ordered a DP1M for 350 euros  ;D . In my opinion, the Merrills are becoming legendary cameras.

I was/am considering the DP1M, but the lens is not as good as DP3/DP2 so I had hoped for the DP1Q.
After having seen Q results, I'm tempted to get the DP1M.
what do people think of the DP1M regarding lens and overall performance?

thanks!

PS: I think the mushiness of the  Q pictures could also be down to increased noise reduction in SPP, not sure though.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:05:58 am by Farsh »
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palpman

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #216 on: July 07, 2014, 07:37:00 am »

Farsh,

I'll let you know as soon as I have it in my hands. The DP1Q will have a redesigned lens, which may meet your expectations. However, it's about the Foveon look, the lens may not be as good as the DP2M or DP3M, but it is still a great lens apparently, and the rendering is similar to the other Merrills.
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janus

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Re: DP1M
« Reply #217 on: July 07, 2014, 12:19:09 pm »

I was/am considering the DP1M, but the lens is not as good as DP3/DP2 so I had hoped for the DP1Q.
After having seen Q results, I'm tempted to get the DP1M.
what do people think of the DP1M regarding lens and overall performance?

thanks!

PS: I think the mushiness of the  Q pictures could also be down to increased noise reduction in SPP, not sure though.

You may want to hop over to dpreview's forum on discussions on whether the DP1M's lens isn't that great. Many will disagree with you. A less wider lens is, in fact, always going to be a little better than a wide angle. Thus, my advice is not to compare a 28mm equiv. lens to a 40mm equiv. lens; the comparison  would be unfair. I ocne had the Zeiss Hologon 16mm for my Contax G camera; and that lens was sharp, but not as great at the 28mm or 50mm lenses I had, and my 90mm was of course THE sharpest.

my 2 cents.


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paul_o

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #218 on: July 07, 2014, 03:52:20 pm »

For those who have not seen the new diglloyd.com (paid subscription required) mosaic scene images and review, they have turned me around from the previous ones posted. I'm now thinking that at non-closeup distances, the Quattros are matching the Merrills, at least for resolution and color.  For micro-contrast they are still a notch behind (by my eyes), but overall the Quattros are looking very good indeed.   
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #219 on: July 07, 2014, 04:56:09 pm »

For those who have not seen the new diglloyd.com (paid subscription required) mosaic scene images and review, they have turned me around from the previous ones posted. I'm now thinking that at non-closeup distances, the Quattros are matching the Merrills, at least for resolution and color.  For micro-contrast they are still a notch behind (by my eyes), but overall the Quattros are looking very good indeed.   

Yes, the Quattro is very good, I find the negative comments a bit exagarated.

Cheers,
Bernard
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