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Author Topic: Sigma DP Quattro  (Read 140054 times)

capital

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2014, 02:04:54 am »

Hi,

It's from observation (check the largely monochrome individual 'channels' as obtainable from a simple DCRaw dissection of pure Raw channel data yourself), caused by scattering and defocus, and from one of the inventors of the Foveon sensor, Richard Lyon, himself (after he sold his interests in the technology he can speak more freely) here (although he might be referring to the new Quattro design in particular).
His comments here are also notable.

Unfortunately, which is why I hesitated to supply the link, even Dick Lyon (an electrical engineer) gets the DSP aspects of the Bayer CFA (for which Bryce Bayer deservedly a Nobel prize laureate) wrong (Bayer CFAs do not sample 25% of a pixel sampling aperture at best). His concept apparently involves 4 Bayer CFA input sensels per 1 output pixel (which is totally not what happens upon capture and subsequent Bayer CFA demosaicing).

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart thanks for the links, I think I see what you mean, the Airy Disk diameter of green light is about 3.7 microns and red is about 5 microns. The Merrill series had a pixel size of about 5 microns. So the "blur" you are talking about is the spill over of the Airy Disk in to adjacent wells? And now that the DP Quattro has a pixel size of about 4.3 microns, even green light might start to be affected (and very likely more so if you stop down from F/2.8 )

 
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LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2014, 05:30:32 am »

I don't understand this, are you claiming that the light intensity in the spatial domain does not behave like a continuos function and Nyquist don't apply?

On the input side, I think the light intensity is a continuous function, and Nyquist applies.  But in digital photography, there is no reconstruction into the continuous domain.  The raster of output pixels is not a continuous domain, but it is a pretty good approximation.  This was somewhat of lesser importance in what I was saying.

Perhaps of greater importance is that trying to do multivariate (luma-chroma) sampling all at once creates a number of practical problems, leading to the need to confabulate, which is typically done by trying to exploit all available information.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:54:18 am by LKaven »
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The Ute

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2014, 09:31:31 am »

You guys sound more like electrical engineers than Photographers.

:)
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LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2014, 10:32:59 am »

You guys sound more like electrical engineers than Photographers.

I've been in self-imposed isolation for the last few months, working on a research project.  Can't wait until the northeast US becomes warm enough to support human life again.  Temperatures down to -10F recently.  No new work to show.

And what else with this camera is there to talk about?  There are no image samples out there, and no cameras to buy.  I am curious about this new sensor design, and whether it delivers on its promise.  I want to see what it can do in low light in comparison to its predecessors.

Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2014, 10:46:06 am »

I for one enjoy the discussion and have learned a few things about sensors in general and foveon in particular so please, carry on :-)
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The Ute

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2014, 11:13:52 am »

Each to their own I guess.

I was only half serious.

It has been a very long Winter.

I apologize if I offended anyone.

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LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2014, 01:00:41 pm »

Here's "A Brief History of the Pixel" by Richard F Lyon, from Foveon (direct PDF link).

http://www.foveon.com/files/ABriefHistoryofPixel2.pdf

More papers from Foveon:

http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=74

Bryce Bayer's patent on the Bayer sensor.  Notice that the sensels are referred to as luminance-sensitive elements and chrominance-sensitive elements.  The G sensels are considered luminance elements.  The word "pixel" doesn't appear for what it's worth.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3971065

The Ute

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Vladimirovich

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Telecaster

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2014, 03:20:41 pm »

On the input side, I think the light intensity is a continuous function, and Nyquist applies. But in digital photography, there is no reconstruction into the continuous domain. The raster of output pixels is not a continuous domain, but it is a pretty good approximation.

To put it another way, when you listen to digitally encoded music you're doing so via a digital-to-analog converter, which reconstucts analog waveforms corresponding to the original recorded waveforms. When you look at a digitally encoded image on a screen, or even on paper, there is no DAC involved. The image remains an aggregate of discrete values.

-Dave-
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hjulenissen

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2014, 04:59:15 pm »

To put it another way, when you listen to digitally encoded music you're doing so via a digital-to-analog converter, which reconstucts analog waveforms corresponding to the original recorded waveforms. When you look at a digitally encoded image on a screen, or even on paper, there is no DAC involved. The image remains an aggregate of discrete values.

-Dave-
I disagree. The signal is d/a converted, but the postfilter is very poor in the case of displays.

I don't knop printers that well but I imaginære that then arena like 1-bit oversampled / dithered d/a converted.

As resolution exceeds human visjon, this starts to not matter.
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LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2014, 05:27:14 pm »

Interview w the CEO of Sigma:

Interesting.  So he calls the Quattro a 39MP equivalent sensor.  

High power usage due to processing step, even with fortified processor.  200 shots per charge, up from 100.  Even for RAW?  I wonder what kind of image processing is going on with that overhead.  Is it multipass?  Adaptive?

LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2014, 05:47:10 pm »

I disagree. The signal is d/a converted, but the postfilter is very poor in the case of displays.

I don't knop printers that well but I imaginære that then arena like 1-bit oversampled / dithered d/a converted.

As resolution exceeds human visjon, this starts to not matter.

Hmm.  While there is a slippery slope in there, there are some further considerations.

Consider that, in the case of the analog audio signal (or any such continuous function), that the digitized samples determine every single point, ad infinitum, of the input signal, as an analytical fact.

This is quite a different thing from adding noise (optical blur, eye resolution limits) to mask the transition between discrete points.  This involves confabulation.

I suspect you might be thinking of things like "digital amplifiers" that use a digital switching power supply to generate voltage changes corresponding to the input signal in +1/-1 increments at a very high rate.  These digital amps use analog low-pass filters in order to smooth out the pulse-stream.

eronald

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2014, 10:40:37 pm »

14 bit quantisation in the Quattro according to Yamaki-san's interview in DPreview.

Edmund
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hjulenissen

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2014, 02:26:59 am »

Hmm.  While there is a slippery slope in there, there are some further considerations.
Regarding the question of whether digital imagery is really A/D and/or D/A converted, this discussion may be a slippery slope. One can for certain say that digital images are "digital". I believe it is fair to say that (quantum physics aside) visible light is, for all intents and purposes, "analog". Thus a visible scene is analog, so is a print or something viewed on your monitor. To capture a digital image (or render it), some kind of A/D or D/A operation is needed.

My point was that the spatial domain behaviour of a display device (let us assume monochrome for simplicity) can be compared to that of an audio D/A converter where the interpolation filter have been reduced to a crude box-car/sample&hold characteristic. This will lead to significant "imaging" (the D/A-equivalent of "aliasing").

Just like the single-bit oversampled audio converters, one might expect that displays/prints of very high spatial resolution, but reduced sample precision (e.g. 1 bit) controlled by noise-shaped dithering and digital resampling may be one way to achieve high quality when "proper" spatial-domain lowpass filtering is hard to do.
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Consider that, in the case of the analog audio signal (or any such continuous function), that the digitized samples determine every single point, ad infinitum, of the input signal, as an analytical fact.
Audio A/D converters use real-world pre-filtering of finite delay and finite stop-band attenuation. Thus, they too will have aliasing in the passband, and the original waveform cannot be recreated at infinite precision (even ignoring the issue of lossy quantization). But since they may be able to suppress this error by e.g. 80 or 100dB, it is generally not a problem.

Having such long filters in digital imagery (thousands of taps) would be really expensive, and might introduce visible ringing that users object to (analogies between our vision and our hearing cannot be stretched very far). Physical spatial filtering of light is even worse :

camera sensors use a comb-filter:
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/wide-band-phase-retardation-film-olpf-6500


while monitors seems to use some "randomized" smearing:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_coating.htm

(it seems that this smearing is effective mostly at subpixel distances, and not so much at full-pixel distances)

I believe that if/when you operate a camera in such a way that the combined effect of scene detail, movement, diffraction, OLPF etc have significant (e.g. 48dB) attenuation at fs/2 and above (pessimistically for the red and blue channels for Bayer), then one might say that the scene was sampled in a Nyquistian fashion and can be recreated (within other limits, such as noise/saturation, color filtering etc). The same way with display: when the density of monitor sensels vs "pixel PSF", viewing distance, human visual acuity, content, digital filtering etc is so chosen, one might say that the image is spatially recreated in the Nyquist sense.

The "problem" seems to be that (many) photographers and customers does not really want this, rather, they want (in some sense) larger-than-life acuity that stretch the capabilities of current sampling densities. This makes it harder to apply the neat signal processing theory from e.g. audio to image problems. While in audio, you can generally make assumptions about what the samples "really" mean physically, and the move on to do number-crunching, in imagery, the samples does not always have this nice physical interpretation. Thus a good audio resampler can be characterized by a couple of decent measurements, while the choice of a good image resampler (to a larger degree) depends on the image content, display device and viewer preferences.

-h
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 02:53:33 am by hjulenissen »
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LKaven

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2014, 03:29:47 am »

I think we're pretty much in agreement all around. 

The case of wave sampling, given the ideal conditions of (i) signal being entirely within the bandpass, and (ii) infinite precision samples, does admit an analytical solution.  But practical and "best approximation" solutions are what we find in the real world.  The use of multivariate and multidimensional sampling in digital photography presents some unique practical challenges.  As I said earlier, considerations of being "convincing" and "believable" enter into the picture, so to speak.

All this gets back to the idea of where the claimed 39MP comes from.  Being not a round number, one wonders how it was computed, and how veridical it is. 

hjulenissen

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #136 on: February 17, 2014, 03:52:48 am »

All this gets back to the idea of where the claimed 39MP comes from.  Being not a round number, one wonders how it was computed, and how veridical it is.  

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/02/10/sigma-unveils-radical-dp2-quattro-with-re-thought-19-6mp-foveon-sensor
Quote
In addition to offering JPEGs at its 19.6MP luminance resolution, a 'Super-High' 39MP JPEG mode will also be offered (14-bit Raw files will include full 16.9+4.9+4.9MP data).

One possibility (wearing my marketing-hat):
The "luminance" resolution of this camera is 19.6MP or so. If you assume that non-OLPF filtered sensors produce luminance detail similar to a Bayer-sensor of sqrt(2) more sensels in each dimension, then a 19.6MP Foveon Quattro sensor is comparable to a 39MP Bayer sensor.

I think that such number games serve only to alienate the enthsiast crowd that they are targeting.

A somewhat more positive twist would be if they are doing heavy lens correction in camera, and found that they could do sharpening/CA removal better at a denser output grid. A fixed lens enthusiast camera has some possibilities when it comes to in-camera corrections.

-h
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 03:55:27 am by hjulenissen »
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eronald

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #137 on: February 17, 2014, 05:38:31 am »

I took Dr. Hunt's colorimetry short course some years ago.
First thing he said is that color is a low-resolution perception. He demonstrated by overlaying blurry color on a sharp monochrome image, yielding a very pleasant colorful picture.

So, I'm not offended when someone makes a camera like the Quattro. I expect it will give the detail of 20 MP Bayer equivalent images, with color that will be pleasant to look at. Which is just about the best one can expect at present from a camera with a fairly small sensor that costs less than a decent SLR lens.


Edmund

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/02/10/sigma-unveils-radical-dp2-quattro-with-re-thought-19-6mp-foveon-sensor
One possibility (wearing my marketing-hat):
The "luminance" resolution of this camera is 19.6MP or so. If you assume that non-OLPF filtered sensors produce luminance detail similar to a Bayer-sensor of sqrt(2) more sensels in each dimension, then a 19.6MP Foveon Quattro sensor is comparable to a 39MP Bayer sensor.

I think that such number games serve only to alienate the enthsiast crowd that they are targeting.

A somewhat more positive twist would be if they are doing heavy lens correction in camera, and found that they could do sharpening/CA removal better at a denser output grid. A fixed lens enthusiast camera has some possibilities when it comes to in-camera corrections.

-h
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hjulenissen

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #138 on: February 17, 2014, 06:22:40 am »

I took Dr. Hunt's colorimetry short course some years ago.
First thing he said is that color is a low-resolution perception. He demonstrated by overlaying blurry color on a sharp monochrome image, yielding a very pleasant colorful picture.
Shure. If you are watching something like FullHD (1920x1080) bluray, color is only sampled at 960x540, and this usually does not matter.
Quote
So, I'm not offended when someone makes a camera like the Quattro. I expect it will give the detail of 20 MP Bayer equivalent images, with color that will be pleasant to look at. Which is just about the best one can expect at present from a camera with a fairly small sensor that costs less than a decent SLR lens.
A good camera is a good camera, regardless of specs or marketing.

I have a dislike for overly creative marketing nonetheless.

-h
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eronald

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Re: Sigma DP Quattro
« Reply #139 on: February 17, 2014, 07:39:06 am »


I have a dislike for overly creative marketing nonetheless.

-h

This is the real reason why no major camera maker can abandon the Bayer sensor: They are trapped by the inflated Bayer megapixel count. Consumers just look at a single number.

For color, what counts is the quality of the sensels, more than their number, but this is not something one can convey easily to the public; nor is it easy to tell them that they don't actually see color at a very high resolution, although they perceive its quality.

Edmund
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