Debate

[dhancock]

Did anyone else watch the Ken Ham - Bill Nye creation v.s. evolution debate? It was quite interesting, and I thought the moderator did a good job. You should be able to see it at http://debatelive.org/. I guess it all goes back to - "a man's morality dictates his theology." However, if you seek the truth, you will find it. Just be warned, truth isn't always comfortable.  I'm sure most of you have different beliefs than I do, but I can't help but think that there has to be a creator. The simplest bacteria is in itself so complex. How could nothing create something?

Psalms 19:1 " The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

[Schewe]

How could nothing create something?

Give it a few billion years and who knows what might happen (clue, do you know how long a billion years is?)

[Rob C]

I believe that none of the established creeds holds any convincing answers; at best they are developments of ideas and the retelling of folklore, but I also believe that they pretty much all (at least ones about which I know a little) touch on the need that we have as a species, a need that I think springs not from fear but from some inner knowledge that this can't just be a happy/unhappy accident.

Anyway, as far as I gather from school: matter can neither be created nor destroyed. At best, you can change it. So big bangs, where there is nothing and then there is something, don't seem to compute unless there is divine intervention prior to the banging.

But quite apart from that, were we not destined for something else, I see no purpose to love, affection, beauty and any of the other factors that make life worthwhile. Brutality would be enough for survival as species. It works for all the others.

So on balance, I have faith that it doesn't all end at death. In fact, I quite fancy the concept of a spiritual dimension where I and my lost loved ones can wander wherever without buying tickets.

Rob C

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

One of the most unbearable things for humans is to not know ...

[Jim Pascoe]

Give it a few billion years and who knows what might happen (clue, do you know how long a billion years is?)

Is it a thousand million or a million million?   In either case I wish I had a billion (or even a million).

Jim

[dhancock]

I believe that none of the established creeds holds any convincing answers; at best they are developments of ideas and the retelling of folklore, but I also believe that they pretty much all (at least ones about which I know a little) touch on the need that we have as a species, a need that I think springs not from fear but from some inner knowledge that this can't just be a happy/unhappy accident...

So on balance, I have faith that it doesn't all end at death. In fact, I quite fancy the concept of a spiritual dimension where I and my lost loved ones can wander wherever without buying tickets.

Rob C

It depends on whether you want to be convinced.

"a man's morality dictates his theology."

I make mistakes, so I don't trust myself. I don't trust scientists, because they are human like me. Instead, I have decided to trust the Bible, which I believe to be inspired and in which I see no error. In fact, it has been preaching science before scientists (http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html). For example, Job 26:7 says, "He hangs the earth on nothing." Science has only discovered this in the past 550 years. The Bible named Cyrus, a king of Babylon, over a hundred years before he was born.

Again, since I don't trust myself, I have to trust in someone else to save me from what I have done wrong. No religion does this (I don't consider my relationship to God as a religion; although some of you might differ). All of them you have to do good things to get a good afterlife. Ray Comfort (another creationist) likens it to going in front of a judge for murder, but saying, "I have done more good things than I have done bad. Aren't you loving enough to let me off?" One sin is enough to send us to hell, but God didn't want us to go to hell, even though we decided to disobey. So He sent Jesus Christ, His son, to take the wrath of God that we justly deserve upon Himself. Then, Christ rose from the dead, defeating death, so through Him, we also can rise to eternal life. We accept this by believing in Jesus Christ, and repenting (turning away and recognizing the wrongness) of our sins. danielhancockphotography.com/christmas.pdf. Either way, I would encourage you to get and read a Bible. Many people would like to tell you what it says, but read it for yourself. Some of it will not make sense (1 Corinthians 2:14), but keep reading. It is an amazing book.

[Jim Pascoe]

It depends on whether you want to be convinced. I make mistakes, so I don't trust myself. I don't trust scientists, because they are human like me. Instead, I have decided to trust the Bible, which I believe to be inspired and in which I see no error. In fact, it has been preaching science before scientists (http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html). For example, Job 26:7 says, "He hangs the earth on nothing." Science has only discovered this in the past 550 years. The Bible named Cyrus, a king of Babylon, over a hundred years before he was born.

Again, since I don't trust myself, I have to trust in someone else to save me from what I have done wrong. No religion does this (I don't consider my relationship to God as a religion; although some of you might differ). All of them you have to do good things to get a good afterlife. Ray Comfort (another creationist) likens it to going in front of a judge for murder, but saying, "I have done more good things than I have done bad. Aren't you loving enough to let me off?" One sin is enough to send us to hell, but God didn't want us to go to hell, even though we decided to disobey. So He sent Jesus Christ, His son, to take the wrath of God that we justly deserve upon Himself. Then, Christ rose from the dead, defeating death, so through Him, we also can rise to eternal life. We accept this by believing in Jesus Christ, and repenting (turning away and recognizing the wrongness) of our sins. danielhancockphotography.com/christmas.pdf. Either way, I would encourage you to get and read a Bible. Many people would like to tell you what it says, but read it for yourself. Some of it will not make sense (1 Corinthians 2:14), but keep reading. It is an amazing book.

I don't really want to get into some sort of religious discussion - because I am not in the least religious and I don't believe in any sort of God.  However I do trust myself and I do trust others around me.  Yes, I know they and I make mistakes - but so what?  We all do some good and some bad, and we have to live with that.  I don't feel the need to be absolved of my sins and I feel perfectly comfortable talking to other real people about issues I have problems with. Each to their own, but personally I would rather take my chances with people.

Jim

[Misirlou]

Anyway, as far as I gather from school: matter can neither be created nor destroyed. At best, you can change it. So big bangs, where there is nothing and then there is something, don't seem to compute unless there is divine intervention prior to the banging.

Rob C

Not true. Happens every day in every nuclear reactor on the planet. That's what E=MC^2 is all about.

But, I'm not trying to make any sort of argument about your (or anyone else's) belief statement; that would be as fruitful as comparing Canon to Nikon, Ford to Chevy, etc.

[Rob C]

Not true. Happens every day in every nuclear reactor on the planet. That's what E=MC^2 is all about.

But, I'm not trying to make any sort of argument about your (or anyone else's) belief statement; that would be as fruitful as comparing Canon to Nikon, Ford to Chevy, etc.

Isn't that the point? You have to have the reactor, somebody had to build and run it. The same with your original bang. I don't know what the equation is about, other than Mr Einstein is usually quoted along with it - a relative sort of relationship there? I doubt that many folks, anywhere, truly do understand what its all about. It doesn't even matter; there always has to be a starting point. Or one may as well deny logic, a process which one is perfectly willing to apply in every other circumstance.

I don't have an evangelical bone in my body; anyone can have any brand of anything - it matters not a jot to me either.

;-)

Rob C

[PeterAit]

And who created the "creator?"

No offense, but what a huge load of nonsense. If you are so fond of the Bible, read Bart Ehrman who completely and irrefutably demolishes the bible as a source of facts.

Oy, why does such ignorance still exist in the world?

[dhancock]

And who created the "creator?"

No offense, but what a huge load of nonsense. If you are so fond of the Bible, read Bart Ehrman who completely and irrefutably demolishes the bible as a source of facts.

Great question! I've wondered about the same question myself, but I've only heard one other person ask it. The answer: God is eternal, with no beginning or ending. God created the beginning of time. (Genesis 1:1)

I read the description for a couple of Bart's books. There are refutations to his statements, but you probably are not interested in hearing them. If you were, you could have already found them elsewhere. However, I can tell you, without a doubt, the Bible was around before Bart, and it will be around after him. Voltaire boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on (livingwaters.com). People have tried to get rid of the Bible many times (such as the Roman emperor Nero), but it is still there. It has proven the test of the ages.

Who would benefit from how the Bible is written? Jesus? His death is well documented (and his resurrection, though many try to deny it). The apostles? They are clearly described as imperfect men. Besides that, eleven out of twelve were killed for it. Isaiah (one of the prophets)? He was sawn in half with a saw. Moses? Besides being displayed negatively in his own writings, he could have stayed as royalty in Egypt if that is what he wanted.

[BobDavid]

Nice photo of a bird of paradise bloom. Soon it will be time for me to clip our birds of paradise back. They grow like weeds in Central Florida.

[dhancock]

Nice photo of a bird of paradise bloom. Soon it will be time for me to clip our birds of paradise back. They grow like weeds in Central Florida.

Thanks! They only grow in greenhouses here.   

[Rob C]

And who created the "creator?"

No offense, but what a huge load of nonsense. If you are so fond of the Bible, read Bart Ehrman who completely and irrefutably demolishes the bible as a source of facts.

Oy, why does such ignorance still exist in the world?

Or arrogance?

So many people thought they had all the answers, only to discover they didn't even understand the questions.

Rob C

[PeterAit]

Or arrogance?

So many people thought they had all the answers, only to discover they didn't even understand the questions.

Rob C

There's no arrogance here, in fact quite the opposite. I don't claim to have "the answers," only to know that certain "answers" are pure poppycock. Unlike many people, I am comfortable not having answers to the "big questions," and am not sure we ever can. I feel very humble when facing the reality of the universe, and it annoys me to no end when some chucklehead tries to cram all this mystery and majesty into a religious myth that would make a modestly intelligent 15 year old burst into laughter. "The tooth fairy did it!"

OK, shutting up now.

[Isaac]

How could nothing create something?

How could there be nothing?

I make mistakes, so I don't trust myself. ... Instead, I have decided to trust the Bible, which I believe to be inspired and in which I see no error.

Errare humanum est. As you make mistakes, that belief may be mistaken.

I would encourage you to get and read a Bible. Many people would like to tell you what it says, but read it for yourself.

I read the description for a couple of Bart's books.

I would encourage you to get and read a Bart Ehrman book. Many people would like to tell you what it says, but read it for yourself.

And who created the "creator?"

Great question! I've wondered about the same question myself, but I've only heard one other person ask it. The answer: God is eternal, with no beginning or ending. God created the beginning of time. (Genesis 1:1)

How could God be eternal? How could God create the beginning of time?

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

The desire to have the one and only truth in your hands is human and understandable,
but in the end this misconception leads to frustration and destruction.

Neither our language, nor our mind with its symbolic thinking and its
continuous attempt to reconstruct the world are able to encompass any sort of final truth - if it exists at all.

Living with this shortcoming is hard to bear - it creates fear and uncertainty,
which subsequently is soothed by religion, science, ideology.

And in their vital and urging need for security the illusion to finally have the one and only truth in their hands
humans start crusades, inquisition, war, genocide, divorce and all other kinds of squabbleing.

Its time to leave the sandbox and grow up !

Cheers
~Chris

[Ray]

I find it totally absurd that any human could imagine that they could have any significant insight and knowledge of the creator of the entire universe. As some wise sage once said, any knowledge of God is probably as accurate as the knowledge of a Beethoven piano sonata that a mouse might have as it scampers across the piano keys in the middle of the night.

It's pretty obvious to me that God is a creation of the human imagination. Such a concept can be useful in the sense that it gives people hope that there is something better in store for them after their miserable existence on this earth.

Mohamed is reputed to have said that this world is a prison for the true believers, but a paradise for the unbelievers. I imagine that a person could tolerate being in prison if they were assured that a paradise would be the reward after death. That's what it's all about.

[dhancock]

Neither our language, nor our mind with its symbolic thinking and its
continuous attempt to reconstruct the world are able to encompass any sort of final truth - if it exists at all.

This is where we disagree. Through what we find in the Bible, I believe we can all understand the basics of truth; I also believe that there definitely is a final truth. I either ate the doughnut, or I didn't.

I find it totally absurd that any human could imagine that they could have any significant insight and knowledge of the creator of the entire universe. As some wise sage once said, any knowledge of God is probably as accurate as the knowledge of a Beethoven piano sonata that a mouse might have as it scampers across the piano keys in the middle of the night.

I do have a question for you: how do you know that?

That's what the Bible is for, to reveal God to us. No human knows it all, including the individual you quoted and me.

How could there be nothing?

Before the creation of my house, my house was non-existent.


I don't think your unbelief in a higher power is because of your objections. Those who create hold their creation responsible. Having a Creator means each of us will be held responsible for our actions. I think your objections come from not wanting there to be a God.

[Rob C]

I find it totally absurd that any human could imagine that they could have any significant insight and knowledge of the creator of the entire universe.

I agree; what a shame that that puts us both in total disagreement with the scientists who think that they are gifted with the 'truth'...

However, I see little real conflict between the scientists and my own beliefs: they think they have proved some of the steps along the way to understanding and I agree with them to an extent; the only problem is that I think they are far further down the hill than they imagine themselves to be. I have no problem with anyone's faith just as long as it doesn't attempt to become a compulsion onto everyone else, and the religion of science is nothing less. I have personally known religious people, so-called Bible-thumpers and self-styled Christians - who were amongst the worst mothers it has been my misfortune to meet in life, and I have met absolute disbelievers who were kind beyond need. We come in many flavours and it has little to do with creeds. It's a shame that Christianity is so blighted by some of its adherents, something that I suppose curses all religions.

I'm reminded of the 'do as I say and not as I do' concept...

One huge objection I see in exclusivity of religion is this: why should the poor unfortunates born many thousands of years before the year 1 AD be held responsible for their 'sins' and condemned to eternal damnation when they were never offered the religious aternatives around today?

In closing, I'd suggest that the Ten Commandments give us a fairly good set or rules for communal living. You don't have to subscribe to any faith to see the value in them - they come down to mutual respect.

Rob C