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Author Topic: Sensor out resolving the lens or the opposite?  (Read 3520 times)

torger

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Re: Sensor out resolving the lens or the opposite?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2014, 04:32:16 am »

There are other values in a camera system than resolving power.

In theory all landscape photography could be made with a single very wide lens with very high resolving power, just point and shoot in the general direction, and then crop to desired composition when you get home. I would not find that shooting process as enjoyable. I gave up stitching because it was too mechanical in the field and too much focus on post-processing. I want to enjoy the process out in the field as much as possible. Precise framing in-camera with flexible view-camera movements and pressing the shutter for a single capture is what I like the most.

I think when you design a camera system you should think about the whole process, how this system is going to be used. It's also about design, how you think lenses should render the scene, if it should be all about resolving power, or if there are other factors.

I like a system which hits a nice tradeoff between conflicting goals. Depending on how the system is going to be used there will be different tradeoffs. I like a system which feels like it's made for the style of work I do, rather than an overkill design which is all about measurable performance.

If we could make high resolution sensor and still keep sanity in terms of camera and optical designs that would be alright, but I don't find that too likely looking at the history so far, at least not in MF space where resolving power and sharp at pixel peep does seem to be a really important selling point. If MF becomes 200 megapixel sensors with narrow angular response that would kill the nice tradeoff I find in the Schneider Digitar system today, and even the weak retrofocus Rodenstocks would have to be redesigned.

The small format cameras are less threatened, there's already a tradition that you don't really need to be sharp at pixel peep, and there's no format today which have really short flange distance so narrow angular response is not really a problem.

I hope MF will continue to provide possibilities for unique optical solutions and systems rather than narrowing down to just a larger 135 format. The larger format allows to hit a tradeoff with larger pixels, higher pixel count and wider angular response all in one package, which I think is where MF should be with current sensor technology.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 04:40:46 am by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sensor out resolving the lens or the opposite?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2014, 03:20:02 pm »

Hi,

A nice summary. Personally, I don't like fat pixels, but your view makes a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik


There are other values in a camera system than resolving power.

In theory all landscape photography could be made with a single very wide lens with very high resolving power, just point and shoot in the general direction, and then crop to desired composition when you get home. I would not find that shooting process as enjoyable. I gave up stitching because it was too mechanical in the field and too much focus on post-processing. I want to enjoy the process out in the field as much as possible. Precise framing in-camera with flexible view-camera movements and pressing the shutter for a single capture is what I like the most.

I think when you design a camera system you should think about the whole process, how this system is going to be used. It's also about design, how you think lenses should render the scene, if it should be all about resolving power, or if there are other factors.

I like a system which hits a nice tradeoff between conflicting goals. Depending on how the system is going to be used there will be different tradeoffs. I like a system which feels like it's made for the style of work I do, rather than an overkill design which is all about measurable performance.

If we could make high resolution sensor and still keep sanity in terms of camera and optical designs that would be alright, but I don't find that too likely looking at the history so far, at least not in MF space where resolving power and sharp at pixel peep does seem to be a really important selling point. If MF becomes 200 megapixel sensors with narrow angular response that would kill the nice tradeoff I find in the Schneider Digitar system today, and even the weak retrofocus Rodenstocks would have to be redesigned.

The small format cameras are less threatened, there's already a tradition that you don't really need to be sharp at pixel peep, and there's no format today which have really short flange distance so narrow angular response is not really a problem.

I hope MF will continue to provide possibilities for unique optical solutions and systems rather than narrowing down to just a larger 135 format. The larger format allows to hit a tradeoff with larger pixels, higher pixel count and wider angular response all in one package, which I think is where MF should be with current sensor technology.
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hjulenissen

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Exactly. That's why it is not very meaningful to think in terms of 'outresolving'. The combined MTF result is dominated by the worst performing component, and the better the other component is, the closer to the optimum of the worst component one can get.

The sensor often sets a relatively hard limit to resolution by its sampling density (Nyquist limit), but lens corner performance may be a major limiting factor in other combinations.

Cheers,
Bart
If "spatial resolution" is the main goal, the system resolution is a function of both sensor and lens resolution (approximately equal to that of the weakest link), and various sensors and lenses offer various resolution/price trade-offs, then it is a simple matter to optimize the $$ spent for maximum system resolution.

In practice, I believe that few people have spatial resolution as their main performance metric, and any given definition of "spatial resolution" may be relevant for the things that concerns a given photographer.

Rather than obsessing with such rules of thumb, I'd suggest looking into actual products out there and doing objective as well as subjective assessment of their performance.

-h
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

For me it is more about correct rendition than resolution alone:

Lens outresolving sensor:


Sensor outresolving lens:


http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik




If "spatial resolution" is the main goal, the system resolution is a function of both sensor and lens resolution (approximately equal to that of the weakest link), and various sensors and lenses offer various resolution/price trade-offs, then it is a simple matter to optimize the $$ spent for maximum system resolution.

In practice, I believe that few people have spatial resolution as their main performance metric, and any given definition of "spatial resolution" may be relevant for the things that concerns a given photographer.

Rather than obsessing with such rules of thumb, I'd suggest looking into actual products out there and doing objective as well as subjective assessment of their performance.

-h
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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