Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Protective spray for canvas...  (Read 9704 times)

chasgroh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
    • Chashots
Protective spray for canvas...
« on: February 01, 2014, 11:32:57 pm »

...so I'm getting into canvas...actually doing my own frames and stretching (I'm a cabinet maker and tooled-up to the max)...just got my first try semi-complete, a two part frame but that's not the issue, and am looking at adding a spray protectant before final mount.  Looking around it seems that most, well, all of what I've found are lacquer-based rattle-can sprays.  Is there any reason to not consider some of the same lacquer I use for finishing my cabinets/woodwork?  I know there would not be an incompatibility between the dry, water based ink jet dyes...opinions?  Lacquer is a wonderful "finish"...drys hard and fast...
Logged
Charlie Groh

...only dead fish go with the flow.

bill t.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
    • http://www.unit16.net
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 11:54:18 pm »

Lacquers and Deft and Polycrylic are all perfectly good sprays for canvas.  EXCEPT they are also very brittle when completely dry.

Since you want to stretch your canvas, I would recommend staying with one of the "for canvas" acrylic sprays.  The advantage of those is they are "long-polymer" formulations that tend to stay flexible.  Your chances of having your corners crack while stretching are much less than with finishes intended for wood.  Stretched canvas goes through continual expansions and contractions with temperature and humidity, another reason while the more brittle wood finishes are not such a good idea.  But if you're going to mount the canvas, then you can still look at those other options.

Glamour II Gloss has particularly good characteristics as a paint.  It sprays well, levels well, and even though it says "Gloss" it's really a satin finish.  I personally wouldn't bother mixing it with matte, which some people do to further increase the satin quality. There are others, will let somebody else comment on those.
Logged

chasgroh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
    • Chashots
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 01:13:22 am »

...thanks Bill...I thought of the expansion/contraction thing but you clarify the case quite well...
Logged
Charlie Groh

...only dead fish go with the flow.

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 07:31:14 am »

Here are two others to consider:

Lexjet sunset coating, either satin or glossy.  Both level very well.  Kudo's to Lexjet as they now place their coating a 1 gallon style jug container which is easier to work with than the paint can style and also helps keep the mix last longer as less air exposure. 

Then there is BC Timeless, produces the best true gloss but it's a pain at times to work with as it does not have leveling agents.  On larger pieces this can cause problems.  I have started to mix my Timeless with Lexjet Sunset Glossy and I am very pleased with the look.  The Sunset glossy by itself doesn't have the same bright glossy look, but by mixing it 1 part to 3 parts of Timeless the leveling agents of the Sunset help to tame the Timeless. 

I spray only for canvas coating. 

Paul Caldwell
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Garnick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 11:02:51 am »

Hi Charlie,

There are obviously several products on the market for coating canvas, and just as many opinions about what's best.  However, in my opinion, I would definitely stay with the aqueous based products.  Better flexibility and less maintenance when it's time to clean up.  I've been printing canvases for more than five years and originally started using Eco Print Shield from http://premierimagingproducts.com/ in California.  It's widely available and easy to use.  I've done some rather large canvases, but since I don't have the space to set up a proper spray booth I apply the coating with a 6" high density foam roller.  I stock the Satin and Gloss formulations and mix accordingly.  Three finishes -- Satin, Satin/Gloss(50/50) and Gloss.  That way the customer can choose the finish they like best for any particular subject.  The first two coats are Satin and the final coat produces the desired finished look.  The only issue I have with the EPS product is one that was mentioned in a recent post in this thread.  Premier Imaging has now changed from a jug container to the paint can style.  Not a good switch at all in my opinion.  I suppose the paint bucket would be easier to shake if you actually have access to a paint "shaker".  However, the jug design always worked well for me and it's certainly easier for pouring.  As a matter of fact I think I'll voice my dislike for the paint bucket with the company after I send this.  I doubt it will have any impact, but perhaps I'm not the only user with this gripe.

I hope some of this will perhaps be of help Charlie. 

Gary
Logged
Gary N.
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was." (gan)

jferrari

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 01:19:51 am »

Premier Imaging has now changed from a jug container to the paint can style.  Not a good switch at all in my opinion.  I suppose the paint bucket would be easier to shake if you actually have access to a paint "shaker".  However, the jug design always worked well for me and it's certainly easier for pouring.  As a matter of fact I think I'll voice my dislike for the paint bucket with the company after I send this.  I doubt it will have any impact, but perhaps I'm not the only user with this gripe.

Gary, you might find this product right here handy for dispensing the liquid coating in 1oz increments. You might also find the Mixing Mate a handy replacement for the one gallon paint can style containers. I have used both of these products and have found them to be useful time savers.      - Jim
Logged
Nothing changes until something changes.

Some Guy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 10:02:14 am »

I also use the Primier Art Print Shield for canvas.  Never used the overcoat of their Eco Print Shield for canvas, just two coats of the Print Shield seems to work well for me out of a HVLP gun. Not a fan of spray cans (I used to use the McDonald's SureGuard but seems harder to find now.) as they don't seem to cover well on larger prints and leave spray lines and junk seems to get into the wet surface more with them than the larger spray gun.  Not much luck with the Krylon protective spray either as it seems a bit cloudy at times.

I've bought the Print Shield in the one quart squeeze bottle size which worked well as I can squeeze out maybe 4-6 ounces into the gun's cup for a large canvas (17x25).  Seems to last (lacquer base) quite a while in the quart bottles even half full.  Haven't run across the can thing yet, but I'm getting close to needing some new stuff so we'll see.

SG
Logged

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 12:10:55 pm »

From one woodworker to another - work out a system to spray Breathing Color Glamour Gloss II  or Timeless- seems like the best all around, and has a very good track record.

The rattle cans really don't offer much protection, but they look good if you need a ultra thin matte finish that doesn't cloud.

It would be great if Dan Berg who is a great woodworker as well as a super photographer / printer would respond.  He's got it down when it comes to spray finishes.

No way I would use Deft, even though it is clear as glass.  No other wood finish /lacquer /poly, etc., will be as flexible or archival as the Lexjet/BC finishes.

-Mark



www.lindquiststudios.com
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

dgberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2753
    • http://bergsprintstudio.com http://bergscustomfurniture.com
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 12:51:40 pm »

From one woodworker to another - work out a system to spray Breathing Color Glamour Gloss II  or Timeless- seems like the best all around, and has a very good track record.

The rattle cans really don't offer much protection, but they look good if you need a ultra thin matte finish that doesn't cloud.

It would be great if Dan Berg who is a great woodworker as well as a super photographer / printer would respond.  He's got it down when it comes to spray finishes.

No way I would use Deft, even though it is clear as glass.  No other wood finish /lacquer /poly, etc., will be as flexible or archival as the Lexjet/BC finishes.

-Mark






www.lindquiststudios.com

Mark,
You have it down pat as good as me if not better.
Well since we are having a woodworkers reunion I might as well chime in.
Like Mark and many others here we have tried a ton of different finishes.
Everyone has a favorite product and mixture. (Mark has his mixtures to perfection.)
I use Timeless gloss mostly with a 10% matte added. 3 light coats and it dries fast and has a beautiful semi gloss sheen.
The Glamor II with its self leveling agents is better for rolling then Timeless. Thin it properly and it sprays so smooth.
If you are a cabinet guy you probably know how to spray and can pick this up really quick.
Try and do your stretching within 2 days as the finishes can get brittle if left for too long before stretching.
If you are doing any canvas wet mounting to gator those would be the ones to try your lacquers on.
I have some water white conversion varnish here that I would like to try sometime. (On my own prints)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 02:40:15 pm by Dan Berg »
Logged

chasgroh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
    • Chashots
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 12:59:07 pm »

...alright, now we're talkin'...I really wanted the wood guys to put this into *my* kind of perspective!  Thanks gents...yeah, I'm set-up to spray so that's not a problem...I'll order up some, ah, well, Timeless 'cuz I like the name (heh, that's how I roll).  One question: Dan, you mention coating *before* stretching, is that the standard?  I have one already stretched, wouldn't that work?
Logged
Charlie Groh

...only dead fish go with the flow.

dgberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2753
    • http://bergsprintstudio.com http://bergscustomfurniture.com
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 02:36:18 pm »

You want to spray before stretching.
One if not the most important reasons for spraying is to protect the inks while stretching. The coating gives the ink flexibility without cracking while stretching. You may learn over time that you will want to even give an extra spray coat on the corners for more protection.
If you start seeing your ink flake or scratch on the corners then add another coat.
You will find the sweet spot.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 05:42:03 am by Dan Berg »
Logged

PeterAit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4559
    • Peter Aitken Photographs
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 05:18:31 pm »

...so I'm getting into canvas...actually doing my own frames and stretching (I'm a cabinet maker and tooled-up to the max)...just got my first try semi-complete, a two part frame but that's not the issue, and am looking at adding a spray protectant before final mount.  Looking around it seems that most, well, all of what I've found are lacquer-based rattle-can sprays.  Is there any reason to not consider some of the same lacquer I use for finishing my cabinets/woodwork?  I know there would not be an incompatibility between the dry, water based ink jet dyes...opinions?  Lacquer is a wonderful "finish"...drys hard and fast...

Perhaps not a spray but a roll-on? Breathing Color has some great protective finishes (there are others of course), you apply them with a paint roller. It's pretty easy, proven by the fact that I can do it well.  Cheaper, environmentally more friendly, I think.
Logged

Mike Guilbault

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
    • Mike Guilbault Photography
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 11:10:20 pm »

I've been reading more about using BC's Glamour II when rolling because of the levelling agents.  I've been using Timeless, mostly with success, but the odd time I still see roller marks.  Will the G-II eliminate those?
Logged
Mike Guilbault

Ken Doo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
    • Carmel Fine Art Printing & Reproduction
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 12:11:54 am »

Spraying by hvlp is definitely easier and more consistent when coating canvas.  Rolling takes a bit more practice and finesse, and is generally more trying than hvlp spray.  I prefer Breathing Color's Glamour II for coating Lyve Canvas, but will use Timeless when hand rolling matte fine art papers.

ken

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 12:46:44 am »

Spraying by hvlp is definitely easier and more consistent when coating canvas.  Rolling takes a bit more practice and finesse, and is generally more trying than hvlp spray.  I prefer Breathing Color's Glamour II for coating Lyve Canvas, but will use Timeless when hand rolling matte fine art papers.

ken

How does Timeless do on paper, compared to the thinner, paper-specific (not for canvas) sprays such as Hahnemuhle Protective Spray and PremierArt Print Shield?
Logged

Ken Doo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
    • Carmel Fine Art Printing & Reproduction
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 09:11:31 am »

Premier Art Shield and Hahn's protective spray (I believe are the same) are the easiest to apply for light protection of photographic prints and matte fine art papers. The primary benefit of these sprays is their increased protection of prints from UV damage.  Breathing Color's Timeless also contains UV inhibitors; Glamour II much less so. Btw, Jon Cone's gloss optimizer for piezography also provides some UV protection though that is not its purpose, and it does protect prints more along the levels of varnishes like Timeless or Glamour II.

As much as I dislike rolling (hvlp spray gun being much preferred), I have found that rolling Timeless is the best way to apply to fine art matte papers.  It's a heavier protectant, adds a sort of softness in feel, but is a lot more work. Glamour II didn't work for me in this regard by either rolling or hvlp. 98% of the time, I'd go with the Premier Art Shield on fine art matte papers, especially if the final print is going to go behind glass.  There is more artistic application and use with rolling Timeless on fine art matte papers.

ken

dgberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2753
    • http://bergsprintstudio.com http://bergscustomfurniture.com
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 09:31:07 am »

Premier Art Shield and Hahn's protective spray (I believe are the same) are the easiest to apply for light protection of photographic prints and matte fine art papers. The primary benefit of these sprays is their increased protection of prints from UV damage.  Breathing Color's Timeless also contains UV inhibitors; Glamour II much less so. Btw, Jon Cone's gloss optimizer for piezography also provides some UV protection though that is not its purpose, and it does protect prints more along the levels of varnishes like Timeless or Glamour II.

As much as I dislike rolling (hvlp spray gun being much preferred), I have found that rolling Timeless is the best way to apply to fine art matte papers.  It's a heavier protectant, adds a sort of softness in feel, but is a lot more work. Glamour II didn't work for me in this regard by either rolling or hvlp. 98% of the time, I'd go with the Premier Art Shield on fine art matte papers, especially if the final print is going to go behind glass.  There is more artistic application and use with rolling Timeless on fine art matte papers.

ken

Ken,
Did you thin with heated water? It makes all the difference in the world when the viscosity is right.
The minus for Glamor II for me is the longer drying time.
Guess I am too used to spraying instant dry laquers.

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 09:41:26 am »

Premier Art Shield and Hahn's protective spray (I believe are the same) are the easiest to apply for light protection of photographic prints and matte fine art papers. The primary benefit of these sprays is their increased protection of prints from UV damage.  Breathing Color's Timeless also contains UV inhibitors; Glamour II much less so. Btw, Jon Cone's gloss optimizer for piezography also provides some UV protection though that is not its purpose, and it does protect prints more along the levels of varnishes like Timeless or Glamour II.

As much as I dislike rolling (hvlp spray gun being much preferred), I have found that rolling Timeless is the best way to apply to fine art matte papers.  It's a heavier protectant, adds a sort of softness in feel, but is a lot more work. Glamour II didn't work for me in this regard by either rolling or hvlp. 98% of the time, I'd go with the Premier Art Shield on fine art matte papers, especially if the final print is going to go behind glass.  There is more artistic application and use with rolling Timeless on fine art matte papers.

ken

PremierArt Print Shield and Hahnemuhle seem to roughly double the lightfastness of prints as well as provide an impermeable barrier to increase resistance to gas fading and other oxidative agents. Given that the layer they impart is micron-thin, they also shouldn't impart any colour cast on the paper even if the polymer itself happens to turn yellow in a hundred years' time, and, due to its thinness, should also never delaminate. They're certainly not for protection against physical damage, though, and can't be used to change the surface texture of the paper.

Given their greater thickness, I would assume that Timeless, Glamour II and other similar varnishes offer much better physical protection than the spray cans, hence their use on unframed canvas. Timeless is stated to be 'non-yellowing' - has this actually been demonstrated through accelerated ageing studies? If a layer of Timeless turns yellow in a hundred years' time, it is thick enough to impart a colour cast on the print behind it. Also, given its thickness and lower flexibility compared to a micron-thin layer of Print Shield (yes, it's flexible, but you don't get much more flexible than a micron-thick polymer coating), would it be more prone to future delamination? On the other hand, it's stated to 'cross-link' with inkjet receptive layers (presumably the polyvinyl alcohol binder, which is also composed of long hydrocarbon chains) and allows canvases to be stretched and bent (where the inkjet layer of uncoated canvases would just crack when subject to the same treatment) so I'm not sure about this one.

Given that Timeless does not contain any levelling agents, how do you roll it smoothly? With a glop of Timeless on the printed surface, followed by smoothing it out with a glass rod? (a bit like coating paper with gelatin)

I certainly like the idea of using Timeless to achieve a gloss or semi-gloss surface on matte papers, though - particularly on uncoated papers, which are matte by definition - so, if things like yellowing or delamination aren't issues, it might be worth considering.
Logged

Justan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1928
    • Justan-Elk.com
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 10:19:30 am »

I've been reading more about using BC's Glamour II when rolling because of the levelling agents.  I've been using Timeless, mostly with success, but the odd time I still see roller marks.  Will the G-II eliminate those?

Yes.

Ken Doo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
    • Carmel Fine Art Printing & Reproduction
Re: Protective spray for canvas...
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 12:18:31 pm »

Ken,
Did you thin with heated water? It makes all the difference in the world when the viscosity is right.
The minus for Glamor II for me is the longer drying time.
Guess I am too used to spraying instant dry laquers.

Hi Dan,
Yes, I do thin with warm water before spraying by HVLP.  I've got my ratios down really well on Glamour II for canvas and thus my reluctance to move to Timeless.  With everything dialed in well with different finishes, Glamour II on canvas works best for me, albeit with longer dry times as you've noted.

I don't coat my fine art matte papers often (other than a misting of Premier Art Shield which I do regularly)----but Timeless for matte papers only is the winner for me. I don't like GII for fine art matte papers regardless of rolling or hvlp spraying.   I roll Timeless on heavy and use decreasing pressure as I finish.  Pita?  Yeah, a little.   ;)
Pages: [1]   Go Up