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Author Topic: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15  (Read 5863 times)

gerald.d

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IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« on: February 01, 2014, 10:45:51 pm »

Those lovely people at ALPA have got their hands on an IQ250.

Tests include up to 25mm rise on the 32HR, with and without LCC.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/news/2014/IQ250-review1.html?year=2014&num=1

Kind regards,

Gerald.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 11:15:30 pm by gerald.d »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 11:08:53 pm »

Great to see more points of data. We've spent our weekend testing tech camera operation with an IQ250 as well.

Just one comment, as a second opinion. The link includes a Rodenstock 32HR (Alpa rebadges their Rodenstock lenses as "Alpagons" - it's the same lens) with 25mm of movement.

Based on Digital Transitions' initial testing we do not feel this combination of lens, movement, and back will be something we suggest. However, the orientation of the sensor seems to matter quite a bit (not just in so far as how far the back reaches into the image circle but also the interaction of the angle of light with the sensor).

gerald.d

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 11:14:40 pm »

Great to see more points of data. We've spent our weekend testing tech camera operation with an IQ250 as well.

Just one comment, as a second opinion. The link includes a Rodenstock 32HR (Alpa rebadges their Rodenstock lenses as "Alpagons" - it's the same lens) with 25mm of movement.

Based on Digital Transitions' initial testing we do not feel this combination of lens, movement, and back will be something we suggest. However, the orientation of the sensor seems to matter quite a bit (not just in so far as how far the back reaches into the image circle but also the interaction of the angle of light with the sensor).
I think they're just putting some outlier samples "out there" to help people in making up their own minds, Doug.

They do specifically highlight -

"Note: 10 mm shift with the 33x44 mm sensor in landscape orientation equals 69 mm of image circle. A rise of 25 mm equals to 94 mm of image circle and is therefore beyond the official 90 mm."

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 11:34:33 pm »

"Note: 10 mm shift with the 33x44 mm sensor in landscape orientation equals 69 mm of image circle. A rise of 25 mm equals to 94 mm of image circle and is therefore beyond the official 90 mm."

There was no negativity in my comment. I applaud them for adding to the points of data available to those looking for info. I was just adding our observations.

As additional reference, though our final report won't be complete for at least two weeks, our initial findings also exclude recommending all parts of the official 90mm image circle of the 32HR, depending on what orientation is used and whether color accuracy is important (not a trite statement - for monochromatic images it is not).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 11:41:13 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 07:02:16 am »

Doug, I can't wait to see the results, based on your interesting notes on the 32MM Rodenstock.  

That is one sharp lens however. One I would love to have.  It's interesting that they were able to get to 25mm of rise, without hitting the forced edge of the image circle.  Rodenstock puts a device inside that creates a hard vignetting when you hit the 90mm of the image circle, at least they do in the 40mm, 23mm and 28mm lenses.  With a full frame sensor you hit this marker by around 16 to 17mm of shift, not sure on how much rise you can get. 

One thing the Alpa entry shows, is that there should be no problem using the Live View in low light!!.  Impressive.

Paul
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 07:10:12 am by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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gerald.d

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 08:44:52 am »

Doug, I can't wait to see the results, based on your interesting notes on the 32MM Rodenstock.  

That is one sharp lens however. One I would love to have.  It's interesting that they were able to get to 25mm of rise, without hitting the forced edge of the image circle.  Rodenstock puts a device inside that creates a hard vignetting when you hit the 90mm of the image circle, at least they do in the 40mm, 23mm and 28mm lenses.  With a full frame sensor you hit this marker by around 16 to 17mm of shift, not sure on how much rise you can get.  

One thing the Alpa entry shows, is that there should be no problem using the Live View in low light!!.  Impressive.

Paul

I think the reason you don't see the hard vignetting is because it's off the edge of the cropped sensor (but would be visible on a FF sensor)
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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 09:42:05 am »

Gerald

My thoughts exactly so it seems this sensor may allow for greater shifts than a full frame.  I also assume the 23 and 28 might get 12mm or so instead of the cut off of 7 mm on full frame due to the same reason.


Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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gerald.d

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 01:04:50 am »

More testing from ALPA...

Stitching shifted images on the 32HR, plus shifted images with the 23HR and 17TSE -

ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News

Using the IQ250 with the FPS -

ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - News

(including controlling both back and camera over wifi!)

Kind regards,


Gerald.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:08:23 am by gerald.d »
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torger

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 02:02:28 am »

The color cast on the 32mm seems to be several stops (I'd love if they measure stops in addition to showing a picture), ie you lose quite a bit of dynamic range. On the other hand this type of sensor has shadow performance like no other sensor so it can handle quite heavy color cast without a disaster result. If one pays $35K for a digital back plus $7.5K for the lens I'd want better performance out of the system than this though, so I guess one should not recommend this combination.

Seems like the first 70mm of the image circle has acceptable DR loss, but then the Digaron-S 35mm for half the price comes to mind.

Note, the 23mm HR image is not from the IQ250, it's for the IQ180. The IQ250 seems to have similar to worse color cast than the IQ180, but haven't seen any direct comparison yet.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:05:36 am by torger »
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gerald.d

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 02:07:41 am »

The color cast on the 32mm seems to be several stops (I'd love if they measure stops in addition to showing a picture), ie you lose quite a bit of dynamic range. On the other hand this type of sensor has shadow performance like no other sensor so it can handle quite heavy color cast without a disaster result. If one pays $35K for a digital back plus $7.5K for the lens I'd want better performance out of the system than this though, so I guess one should not recommend this combination.

Seems like the first 70mm of the image circle has acceptable DR loss, but then the Digaron-S 35mm for half the price comes to mind.

Note, the 23mm HR image is not from the IQ250, it's for the IQ180. The IQ250 seems to have similar to worse color cast than the IQ180, but haven't seen any direct comparison yet.

Oops. My bad. Will correct - thanks.
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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 07:47:26 am »

(mechanical vignette/fall-off) were intended as this combination reaches an image circle of 108 mm and therefore 20 % beyond the official image circle of 90 mm indicated by Rodenstock.   

Sadly, Rodenstock insists on placing that mechanical vignette device inside their lenses.  I can assure you that this lens, the 40mm, and even the 28mm would work well beyond that imposed limit by Rodenstock.  The 40mm would easily go to at least 22mm, but starts to hit the mechanical vignette device at around 16mm.  The Schneider's on the other hand don't have the device, but they can't make that much shift as the detail smearing/color loss is terrible.   I have taken the 28mm to 11mm (it hits the vignetting device at 7mm) and the parts of the image not destroyed by the imposed vignette are fine. 

I am very interested to see what DT's testing will show, as the color cast that Alpa received i.e. purple/orange is pretty harsh to me.  Yes the LCC seems to correct it, but it's really hard to tell anything from the final image as it's so small.  I am assuming this was shot at iso 100, and if you were wanting to shoot the same series at iso 400 or even 800, the resulting noise/color cast may become a bit more destructive.  Still hard to tell without full sized samples. 

Glad to see more results. 

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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torger

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 08:17:20 am »

They do have a link to a full-size sample of the LCC corrected image:

http://www.alpa.ch/dms/articles/2014/IQ250-stitching/ALPA_Review_IQ250_6xStitch.jpg

I'd say that there can be situations where you can get good results. However in this case the whole sky is overexposed, and rendering the sky with a proper smooth blue color with that heavy color cast is probably difficult. I'd like to see a properly exposed sky before one can say if it's working, as I suspect that you would see casts in the sky even after correction.

And then there's the actual amount of DR you'd lose. Even if this sensor can take a heavy beating in terms of DR, I suspect that if you pay $35K for a back and $7.5K for a lens you would want good DR in the whole image circle. I'd like to see a test with center filter, and the LCC raws so one can make a proper DR analysis of them.

Still hard to tell without full sized samples.  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 08:29:45 am by torger »
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Ken R

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 11:03:57 am »

From what I'm seeing even the Rodenstock HR wide angles require HEAVY corrections (LCC). I would label them as "usable" with little movement. The color casts are just horrendous. Of course the SLR type lenses like the Canon TS-E's look really nice. No issues there. The testing just seems to prove what the dealers said in the beginning, that the IQ250 is not really good for use with tech cameras (wide angles) but is usable in some cases. The A7R has the same nasty issues with non retrofocus extreme wide angles.

Arca, please make an FPS unit please please :)

Overall the IQ chassis is a superb design by PhaseOne. Glad they are incorporating other sensors in it. The more options the better.
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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 11:13:56 am »



Arca, please make an FPS unit please please :)


+1 on that!!

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Frederic_H

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 11:18:21 am »

Something tells me the wait will be over in a couple of months  ;D
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torger

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Re: IQ250 on ALPA FPS/Max. Rodie 32, Canon 17 TSE, Canon 8-15
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 11:31:13 am »

+1 on that!!

And when they do, I hope they impress me by making a shallow shutter so they can keep a short flange distance. I hope backs with pixel vignetting as bad as the IQ250 won't be the CMOS standard forever.

I just looked at the mechanical design of my Linhof Techno, and realize that it's probably feasible to make a shallow shutter module for it, at least if you skip the sliding back function. So I guess I too hope for a FPS module for "my" brand, but they can wait until I can afford a live view-capable back of proper size and with less color cast :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 12:46:07 pm by torger »
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