Sharpening in Lightroom with Grain

[JB Rasor]

I use Silver Efex Pro 2 frequently, then finish things off in Lightroom. Generally, after the final image gets back to LR, I'll add a touch of clarity and then sharpening. My concern with sharpening last in LR, is that I'm sharpening the grain more than anything.

I love the grain that Silver Efex produces, and I tend to use that more than the grain feature in LR.

Should I start sharpening in LR before exporting to Silver Efex? Or should I reexamine my workflow?
Just to recap my workflow:
1: Import images to LR and make initial adjustments, tone, WB, profile correction, etc.
2: Export to Silver Efex to optimize B&W image, which often means adding grain.
3: Save back to LR, where I'll add about 12 on Clarity and sharpen.

Thanks for your help everyone!
JB Rasor
 

[Schewe]

Sharpen before grain...so sharpen the image optimally BEFORE going to Silver Efex (as well as all the other raw processing including noise reduction, lens correction, rotation).

[JB Rasor]

Excellent Jeff! Thank you very much!

[Schewe]

I'll also add that adding Clarity (either global or local) tend to work really well for rendered images such as what you'll get from Silver Efex...same deal with highlight recovery toning. If you need to recover highlights, please do so in the raw file not the rendered file. Adjusting the overall tone curve (non-recovery) and color adjustments works really well in rendered files.

The bottom line is that anything you can do to the raw image to optimize it (including tone/color/detail/lens corrections) SHOULD be done in the raw file before rendering...

[JB Rasor]

That was my initial instinct Jeff. However, I've always operated under the premise of sharpen last. But in this particular case, with the image being processed so heavily by Silver Efex, sharpening prior to sending it to SE is the proper workflow. Would you suggest, as well, not applying any output sharpening when rendering to a JPG or printing?

[Schewe]

That was my initial instinct Jeff. However, I've always operated under the premise of sharpen last.

And that is wrong headed...read what Bruce wrote and you'll get a better understanding of a Sharpening Workflow.

Capture sharpening should be done first after tone/color correction. Then do "creative sharpening" by eye (carefully) and the final round is output sharpening only when you know the final output size/resolution and media.

That's the whole concept behind Lightroom's sharpening-Bruce's concepts were incorporated into ACR/LR (somewhat limited in terms of creative sharpening). Bruce and I consulted with Adobe on the capture sharpening and Adobe licensed PhotoKit Sharpener's routines for LR's output sharpening.

Really, you DON'T want to wait till the end to try to do sharpening...that's was last millennium thinking. You want to incorporate a sharpening workflow for optimal results.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

...
Really, you DON'T want to wait till the end to try to do sharpening...that's was last millennium thinking. You want to incorporate a sharpening workflow for optimal results.

Jeff, how about output sharpening?

I like to create master files, which get sharpened for output after everything else has been done.
Usually I go like this:

1. Global and local denoising (using masks at times)
2. Input sharpening
3. Creative sharpening, maybe locally with masks
4. Cropping, color balance, exposure, levels, curves, dodging/burning, layer work etc ..
5. Masterfile

Output:
1. Final cropping
2. Minor adjustments in softproofing
3. Output sharpening (in LR Print module or in PS)

Cheers
~Chris

[Jeremy Roussak]

Jeff, how about output sharpening?

I like to create master files, which get sharpened for output after everything else has been done.

I think that's exactly right.

Jeremy

[Tony Jay]

Jeff, how about output sharpening?

I like to create master files, which get sharpened for output after everything else has been done.
Usually I go like this:

1. Global and local denoising (using masks at times)
2. Input sharpening
3. Creative sharpening, maybe locally with masks
4. Cropping, color balance, exposure, levels, curves, dodging/burning, layer work etc ..
5. Masterfile

Output:
1. Final cropping
2. Minor adjustments in softproofing
3. Output sharpening (in LR Print module or in PS)

Cheers
~Chris

As far as I am aware this is the current way of thinking about image development workflow.

Tony Jay

[PhotoEcosse]

How dare I disagree with Jeff Schewe! 

But I can only tell you what works best for me.

Like you, I use SilverEfexPro2 a lot from within Lightroom.

What I find works best is to completely remove any Lightroom adjustments that I may have made when first assessing the image, together with any adjustments (such as default sharpening) that LR may have applied at import and, in effect, shoot an image based upon the really raw Raw over to SEP2.

Using the structure and fine structure facilities in SEP2 (including locally using CPs) before adding grain (again in SEP2) seems to give me the results I desire. Basically, for much of the adjustment, SEP2 does a much better job than LR at that stage.

I then take the image back into Lightroom for finishing - which may, or may not, include adjusting clarity (sometimes downwards to take the rough edge off my over-enthusiasm in SEP2), perhaps some sharpening and often a wee bit of noise reduction.

As I say, the only claim I can make is that it works for me using the .NEFs from my D800s and the D3s before them. May work differently with different "brands" of Raw.

Perhaps I should add that I almost always assess my final results on the basis of an A3+ print made on an R3000 using the Epson Advanced B&W profile and Ilford Gold Mono Silk paper. Once again, it may be different for different outputs.

[JB Rasor]

Thanks for the article Jeff. It was definitely enlightening, as sharpening is one of those adjustments that slightly confuses me. The reason I would often sharpen last, or near the end of my workflow in LR, is because I know the adjustments aren't rendered until the file is exported. And then they are rendered in the optimal order (Adobe's optimal order at least). It wasn't until I began working a lot with SEP2 that I found my overall work flow wasn't ideal. But I think I'm on the right track now.

With regards to output sharpening, I am still a little confused. I know for printing, resolution size is set and output sharpening is applied. But staying away from the topic of printing, and just looking at an export to JPG, LR gives a couple of sharpening options...one of which is "Sharpen for Screen."

I've noticed that when I apply "Sharpen for Screen" to a TIFF file, after it has passed through SEP2, it comes out noticeably different than it does if output sharpening was not applied. Generally the image is brighter and more course, which may be exactly what that sharpening was supposed to do and it just isn't to my taste. But my original thought was, I'm over sharpening or sharpening grain after the fact. It's trial and error to be sure, but from now on I will certainly optimize the image in LR, including sharpening, before heading to SEP2.

P.S. Ecosse, I do agree the structure sliders in SEP2 provide a good bit of apparent sharpening, at least to my eyes they do.

[luxborealis]

...Generally, after the final image gets back to LR, I'll add a touch of clarity and then sharpening. My concern with sharpening last in LR, is that I'm sharpening the grain more than anything.

Should I start sharpening in LR before exporting to Silver Efex? Or should I reexamine my workflow?

JB Rasor

Questions like this, while perfectly valid, remind me of Fred Picker and his Zone VI newsletters. He wrote a few times about responding to questions like this with a big red rubber stamp that said: TRY IT!. He wasn't being curmudgeonly, sarcastic or indifferent to the needs of his readers, he was just bluntly encouraging them to do the work themselves to compare a before and after, then, most importantly, decide for themselves what works best for them.

Yes, it is great to have discourse about a subject or technique, but trying it for yourself is the clearest, most helpful way of determining whether or not it's the right course of action for you.

Good luck and do let us know what you've learned.

[john beardsworth]

What I find works best is to completely remove any Lightroom adjustments that I may have made.

It may work for you, but it seems suspiciously like turd polishing, don't you think?

[PhotoEcosse]

It may work for you, but it seems suspiciously like turd polishing, don't you think?

Can you explain what you mean by that John? My ignorance - it's not an expression that is known on the other (east) side of the Atlantic.

[john beardsworth]

Huh? It's a well-known expression here in Britain (pretty sure it's used in Monty Python).

[Tony Jay]

Huh? It's a well-known expression here in Britain (pretty sure it's used in Monty Python).

I am not so sure that Monty Python is a cultural icon in the US of A, unlike in the colonies!

Tony Jay

[Schewe]

I am not so sure that Monty Python is a cultural icon in the US of A, unlike in the colonies!

It is for a lot of us...


PhotoEcosse, I think your workflow is leaving potential image quality on the table by doing what you are doing...but you are free to do things any way you want. If you have something that works, fine, go for it...

[PhotoEcosse]

Huh? It's a well-known expression here in Britain (pretty sure it's used in Monty Python).

Norwegian Blues I know well; polishing turds is a new one one me.

 

[Jeremy Roussak]

Huh? It's a well-known expression here in Britain (pretty sure it's used in Monty Python).

I'm pretty sure it's not used anywhere in Monty Python, but the expression "you can't polish a turd" is, I think, well known; and it's not difficult to guess what it means, if you don't know.

Jeremy