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Author Topic: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porsche?  (Read 10100 times)

dirkpieters

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Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porsche?
« on: January 30, 2014, 08:43:06 am »

Hi All
I sometimes do Jewellery and also large format posters for retail. I have been using a Canon 5d MK 3 and will hire a MFDB if I need to.
Recently a H4D-31 came up for sale for $7000 I tested it to see if it was worth buying. My clients have always been happy with the files from the 5dmk3
Just did this quick test. I must admit I was hoping for something amazing but found that the H4D was only slightly better in sharpness.
Im not sure that its worth the extra money. Perhaps this is why they discontinued it in favour of the 40mp back.
Also I would need to rent or buy the 120mm macro which is seriously expensive.
I shot a close up scene and in the first pic you can see that I have comped the stone of the Canon pic into the shot.
The next pic is the 100% crop in. this image would be 77cm tall. I set the jpg quality at max for this one
In the next image I enlarged the pic to 3,5m/11,5 feet high and cropped in to just show the stone and I also placed the canon version of the ring.
(Apologies for the jewellery that looks like a crime scene)
I also took some other comparative pics which I will be able to post later.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ch556i8bkreih5a/f3-L_3fkg6
Processed in LR4
Let me know what you think.
I was also hoping for something else; Perhaps that Hasselblad feeling of excellence washing over me.
Maybe it's like buying a cheap Porsche?


« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 02:48:55 pm by dirkpieters »
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MrSmith

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 09:26:20 am »

sony A7r with adapter to match whatever macro lens you wish to work with would be my choice if i wanted to shoot jewellery
that or a novoflex bellows or horseman with rodenstock 75mm api rodagon lens so you have tilt.  more bang per $
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 09:28:30 am »

Only you can decide what is worth for you and what isn't.
However, I would recommend processing the Hassy files in Phocus and not LR.

FWIW, I think your hassy samples look way nicer than the Canon ones.
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bpepz

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 10:08:48 am »

Only you can decide what is worth for you and what isn't.
However, I would recommend processing the Hassy files in Phocus and not LR.

FWIW, I think your hassy samples look way nicer than the Canon ones.

Glad you brought up the lightroom vs phocus thing for hassy files. I don't know what it is, but lightroom has a hard time rendering the colors correctly on hasselblad files. It is especially evident when you shoot anything with warm tones, they get crushed and turn a light orange or peach color. Skin tones almost always suffer in LR. That sucks because otherwise Lightroom is much better at removal of CA and highlight recovery then phocus. Too bad LR ruins the colors.
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 10:16:21 am »

Glad you brought up the lightroom vs phocus thing for hassy files. I don't know what it is, but lightroom has a hard time rendering the colors correctly on hasselblad files. It is especially evident when you shoot anything with warm tones, they get crushed and turn a light orange or peach color. Skin tones almost always suffer in LR. That sucks because otherwise Lightroom is much better at removal of CA and highlight recovery then phocus. Too bad LR ruins the colors.

In my experience, LR does a pretty bad job with colors for almost any brand. It is the main reason why I rarely use the software anymore.
Both Hassy and Phase/Leaf files look much better in their native software.

Adobe has developed an incredible DAM package, but the RAW development part leaves a lot to be desired.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 10:45:54 am »

If you intend to keep down costs of your camera equipment and you do well already with a 5Dmk3, it will be very hard to come to a rational decision to work with MF.

A D800e or Sony A7r will upgrade the image quality to a much lower cost. If you're not in a hurry I'd wait and see what's happening with Sony A7r and view camera adapters, like on Arca-Swiss MF-two. Being able to tilt and shift in your macro photos may be valuable for you? But it seems to me that most do focus stacking these days anyway if they have a depth of field problem. Personally I find it really enjoyable to work with view camera movements and could look into that for the pure fun of it.

If you're having issues with color accuracy I'd look into profiling solutions. I'm quite sure you can render good accurate colors in LR with custom profiles.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 10:47:32 am by torger »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 10:59:47 am »

Hi All
I sometimes do Jewellery and also large format posters for retail. I have been using a Canon 5d MK 3 and will hire a MFDB if I need to.
Recently a H4D-31 came up for sale for $7000 I tested it to see if it was worth buying. My clients have always been happy with the files from the 5dmk3
Just did this quick test. I must admit I was hoping for something amazing but found that the H4D was only slightly better in sharpness.
Im not sure that its worth the extra money. Perhaps this is why they discontinued it in favour of the 40mp back.
Also I would need to rent or buy the 120mm macro which is seriously expensive.
I shot a close up scene and in the first pic you can see that I have comped the stone of the Canon pic into the shot.
The next pic is the 100% crop in. this image would be 77cm tall. I set the jpg quality at max for this one
In the next image I enlarged the pic to 3,5m/11,5 feet high and cropped in to just show the stone and I also placed the canon version of the ring.
(Apologies for the jewellery that looks like a crime scene)
I also took some other comparative pics which I will be able to post later.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ch556i8bkreih5a/f3-L_3fkg6
Processed in LR4
Let me know what you think.
I was also hoping for something else; Perhaps that Hasselblad feeling of excellence washing over me.
Maybe it's like buying a cheap Porsche?





While I agree with the others that best bang for buck might be DSLR, or Sony A7, etc, I'm surprised at the degree the results favor the Hasselblad in your examples. It should be better, but the difference is substantial in your examples. How much better did you expect? You had superior clarity, detail, and sharpness by a wide margin. What was your expectation?

I don't use expressions like "amazing" very often when describing medium format solutions (or other solutions). And when I hear it from those who are considering a purchase - it raises a flag to me that your expectations may not be appropriate. It's fine for someone to be amazed at their camera, but that is not a bar for someone else to base a buying decision on.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 11:00:04 am »

In my experience, LR does a pretty bad job with colors for almost any brand. It is the main reason why I rarely use the software anymore.
Both Hassy and Phase/Leaf files look much better in their native software.

Adobe has developed an incredible DAM package, but the RAW development part leaves a lot to be desired.

+1
Lightroom makes ALL cameras look equally bad.

By the way, you can probably SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS FOR FREE by using the DPP software that comes on the CD with your Canon camera. It HUGELY improves the quality of images from any Canon camera, compared with Lightroom. Of course, the Hassy should still be better in theory, but my feeling is that you there is much to be gained with improving the 5DIII post first.

If you buy a used  Hassy, try and get an old H3D39MS, multishot is probably significantly better for your application, and will leave the 5DIII in the dust.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:08:41 am by eronald »
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jduncan

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 11:42:50 am »

Hi All
I sometimes do Jewellery and also large format posters for retail. I have been using a Canon 5d MK 3 and will hire a MFDB if I need to.
Recently a H4D-31 came up for sale for $7000 I tested it to see if it was worth buying. My clients have always been happy with the files from the 5dmk3
Just did this quick test. I must admit I was hoping for something amazing but found that the H4D was only slightly better in sharpness.
Im not sure that its worth the extra money. Perhaps this is why they discontinued it in favour of the 40mp back.
Also I would need to rent or buy the 120mm macro which is seriously expensive.
I shot a close up scene and in the first pic you can see that I have comped the stone of the Canon pic into the shot.
The next pic is the 100% crop in. this image would be 77cm tall. I set the jpg quality at max for this one
In the next image I enlarged the pic to 3,5m/11,5 feet high and cropped in to just show the stone and I also placed the canon version of the ring.
(Apologies for the jewellery that looks like a crime scene)
I also took some other comparative pics which I will be able to post later.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ch556i8bkreih5a/f3-L_3fkg6
Processed in LR4
Let me know what you think.
I was also hoping for something else; Perhaps that Hasselblad feeling of excellence washing over me.
Maybe it's like buying a cheap Porsche?




If you do product for living I will recommend you to test the H5D-200MS, you may be able to get a free demo form a dealer.
Then when you really need big files you could rent as add it to the client bill.

In particular the difference of translucency vs transparency is really shown with direct image technologies (The Sigma too).
I agree with the others about using the proprietary software.

Best regards,

J. Duncan
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2014, 12:24:53 pm »

Only you can decide what is worth for you and what isn't.
However, I would recommend processing the Hassy files in Phocus and not LR.

FWIW, I think your hassy samples look way nicer than the Canon ones.
Definitely Phocus… An alternative would be to extract DNGs (after a quick tune) from Phocus and develop the DNGs to LR...
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 12:29:47 pm »

Hi All
I sometimes do Jewellery and also large format posters for retail. I have been using a Canon 5d MK 3 and will hire a MFDB if I need to.
Recently a H4D-31 came up for sale for $7000 I tested it to see if it was worth buying. My clients have always been happy with the files from the 5dmk3
Just did this quick test. I must admit I was hoping for something amazing but found that the H4D was only slightly better in sharpness.
Im not sure that its worth the extra money. Perhaps this is why they discontinued it in favour of the 40mp back.
Also I would need to rent or buy the 120mm macro which is seriously expensive.
I shot a close up scene and in the first pic you can see that I have comped the stone of the Canon pic into the shot.
The next pic is the 100% crop in. this image would be 77cm tall. I set the jpg quality at max for this one
In the next image I enlarged the pic to 3,5m/11,5 feet high and cropped in to just show the stone and I also placed the canon version of the ring.
(Apologies for the jewellery that looks like a crime scene)
I also took some other comparative pics which I will be able to post later.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ch556i8bkreih5a/f3-L_3fkg6
Processed in LR4
Let me know what you think.
I was also hoping for something else; Perhaps that Hasselblad feeling of excellence washing over me.
Maybe it's like buying a cheap Porsche?



You really need MS for jewellery… An old 16mp back with 16x capability would be perfect for your needs. You wouldn't believe your eyes, …nor your customers theirs.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 12:40:56 pm »

Various thoughts...

1) Diffraction at these magnifications at f/16 will significantly effect sharpness. If you repeated the test at f/11 on the MF system you'd find even greater difference. Whether this is relevant to your work (whether you could ever capture at f/11 on MF based on DOF requirements, style of shooting, willingness to focus stack etc) is an important but separate question.

2) If you're looking for large improvements in single-shot capture you'd want a system which allows tilt and swing (e.g. a view camera with a digital back rather than a fixed lens SLR).


3) In my experience the Hassy 120mm macro shows diffraction earlier in the aperture range than the Phase 120mm macro. Possibly because of the non-optional use of a leaf shutter which adds additional surfaces for the light to diffract around (I'm not sure of the underlying technical cause but it shows repeatedly in practical testing). A Mamiya based solution would provide a less expensive body, and less expensive macro lens, with - in my biased but informed opinion - better characteristics for jewelry.  

4) Starting with "I see a good deal on XYZ, will it work well for me?" is, in my experience, a recipe for disappointment and frustration. If you're interested in medium format you should start by asking "What would work well for me?" and THEN look for a good deal on that equipment (including the value of warranty, condition, support, training, accessories and accessory condition, cost of additional items you're likely to want in the future like backup bodies, other lenses, cost of repairs or rentals/replacements/loaners if you have any issues etc). The world is large, and unless you need something tomorrow then you'll find a good deal on whatever equipment you find by research/testing/opinions; jumping on a particular deal you see that you think is especially good - unless it is absolutely exceptional - is giving yourself an artificial and dangerous deadline.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 12:45:43 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 12:44:32 pm »

You really need MS for jewellery

T... "need"?

If you find something useful for your work by all means share. That's what the forum is for.

But I'd ask you to be more selective in your terminology. Nobody "needs" MS for jewelry. Heck I sell digital backs and I would never tell someone they even "need" any medium format system, or any given lens or resolution, for jewelry.

I don't know; maybe you live in a small market or otherwise have a small sample size and some unusual number of jewelry shooters you know are using MS. I gather that from comments you've made on other threads of what ratios of gear you think photographers are using today. But I assure you in the world market the number of jewelry shooters, even if you limit the sample to high-end jewelry shooters, using MS is not large."

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 12:55:32 pm »

T... "need"?

If you find something useful for your work by all means share. That's what the forum is for.

But I'd ask you to be more selective in your terminology. Nobody "needs" MS for jewelry. Heck I sell digital backs and I would never tell someone they even "need" any medium format system, or any given lens or resolution, for jewelry.

I don't know; maybe you live in a small market or otherwise have a small sample size and some unusual number of jewelry shooters you know are using MS. I gather that from comments you've made on other threads of what ratios of gear you think photographers are using today. But I assure you in the world market the number of jewelry shooters, even if you limit the sample to high-end jewelry shooters, using MS is not large."
"Need" goes to the enquiry… he wants something clearly better than what he currently uses… Do you think he can get it otherwise Doug? ….he will even save the change.

P.S. Another one mentioned a 200MS (!!!!) before… I think he's better of matching that, shoot square and save the change… Just an advise to an enquiry of another.
P.S.2 "Need" also goes into advancing visibly better than competitors on the same job… Hence advance professionally!  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 01:04:10 pm by T.Dascalos »
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 01:15:06 pm »

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ch556i8bkreih5a/f3-L_3fkg6

Is this a real question or are you trying to pull our collective legs? The output from the H4D-31 look definitely sharper than the one from the Canon 5DMk3 in the linked pictures. It is not like day and night (but then the difference in linear resolution is not enormous either), but it is clearly visible.
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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 01:36:17 pm »

Re: The original question, I say "Only if the Hasselblad is really a "Haselblad" or even a "Haelblad," since you left out an essential "S," at least if "Porche" is supposed to refer to the high-end automobile.  ::)

-The Spelling Nazi
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 03:18:23 pm »

Also, the 5D3 needs to be underexposed by at least 1 stop to preserve speculars in this application. The underexposure is already factored into the H3D31 Iso setting.

Now if the 5D were pitted against a multishot back, then we might expect to see a real difference.

Edmund

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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 03:35:53 pm »

Also, the 5D3 needs to be underexposed by at least 1 stop to preserve speculars in this application. The underexposure is already factored into the H3D31 Iso setting.

Now if the 5D were pitted against a multishot back, then we might expect to see a real difference.

Edmund


The difference that an MS back would exhibit when compared to H3D-31 (or other single shot) for jewellery, would be far greater than 5D when compared to single-shot MF… It's the requirements of the particular project (jewellery) that favours MS in particular… Whatever still-life includes "shiny-metals", MS is the king as much so, as it is with painting reproduction. In other still-life appliances, MS superiority won't be so obvious (though still present) as with the above projects…
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RobertJ

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 03:42:21 pm »

Man, I don't know what you're seeing, but the Hassy is definitely a lot better than the Canon.  It's not like in-your-face-insane-detail-explosion like a Sigma, but it's definitely better than the Canon.  Not sure what you were expecting?...
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H4D-31 Vs 5DMk3 Is it like buying a cheap Porche?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 03:49:47 pm »

Re: The original question, I say "Only if the Hasselblad is really a "Haselblad" or even a "Haelblad," since you left out an essential "S," at least if "Porche" is supposed to refer to the high-end automobile.  ::)

-The Spelling Nazi

Yes, I agree, you should spell the name of this Nazi correctly; Ferdinand Porsche was a member of the SS and detained for 22 months by the french after the end of WW2.

BTW, the Leitz family were both exceptionally honorable and discrete.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:33:06 am by eronald »
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