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Author Topic: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question  (Read 39264 times)

Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2014, 11:22:44 am »

Yes; this is why I've been hoping we'd get Raw takes now (which he used to post a bit years ago) rather than final work.
I would really like to see what the skin tones and texture look like out of camera, using his lighting.
Most of what I've seen so far comes from the women like unfed vampires, men like rock faces school.

Edmund


Edmund, that's today - it's the crazy state of the world. Nobody but a lunatic imagines that those representations of women attract anyone but the hunger-charity organizations; those representations exist because they are the structure holding up the fabric within whose shadow are created the jobs that offer the lifestyles that those pushers enjoy.

It's all a gigantic con. But it pays well and exacts a massive personal price.

Rob C

RVB

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2014, 02:58:05 pm »

What's the difference between the first and second version of the S? There were some AF issues, I remember, but for all I know they were solved by an update?

Edmund

The base ISO on the S is 100 vs 160 on the S2, the viewfinder is 98% vs 94% on the S2..

The rear screen is much higher Rez and new menu system,AF is better and a new coating on the S that feels better,there is last but not least a joystick which makes image preview easier..

Rob
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bcooter

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2014, 03:45:02 pm »

The base ISO on the S is 100 vs 160 on the S2, the viewfinder is 98% vs 94% on the S2..

The rear screen is much higher Rez and new menu system,AF is better and a new coating on the S that feels better,there is last but not least a joystick which makes image preview easier..

Rob

I've had zero focus issues, tracking and static.  It's not a Nikon D4, but for medium format it's good and I've used all of my contax lenses from 35 to 210, the boris tilt shift, my hasselblad 110 f2 and two Pentax 6x7 lenses (obviously the last two brands are manual focus).

The 94% thing doesn't bug me as I always want some room around the image anyway.

The focus check is kind of goofy, similar but different than the Phase p backs, but not a leap and not an issue.

The best focus check I've seen is on the olympus cameras that immediatly zoom to where the focus point was set.   That's a pretty cool function, but since the Leica just has one focus point, it probably wouldn't matter.

Once Leica comes out with a cmos camera and more S come available, I'll probably add another ccd version as backup, but would be just as happy with the S2, at least so far.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 03:55:48 pm by bcooter »
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bcooter

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2014, 05:17:39 pm »

I’m confused; the Leica S is the successor to the Leica S2?

What is it with Leica nomenclature?

S is the newest, go figure, but then again I don't understand most cameras name. OMD em-1, vs. omd em-5, IQ 250, 1ds, 1ds mark II, then m-8, m-9 then m240 and of course leica M.     

So who knows what they are thinking.

IMO

BC
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Ken R

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2014, 05:26:51 pm »

S is the newest, go figure, but then again I don't understand most cameras name. OMD em-1, vs. omd em-5, IQ 250, 1ds, 1ds mark II, then m-8, m-9 then m240 and of course leica M.    

So who knows what they are thinking.

IMO

BC

Maybe Leica did not want to confuse their camera with THIS one (this is the first DSLR I ever owned)?  ;D

I actually really liked the files out of the Fuji and made a lot of nice images with it. It eventually died from the black death syndrome. I then got it fixed and sold it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 05:29:40 pm by Ken R »
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2014, 08:29:40 pm »

It's the latest branding trick - Apple also only has "the new iPad" ads. So we've been promised that now there is only an "S" and an "M" with model numbers.

In fact there was the first S1 scanback,  then the S2 which the artist formerly known as James has bought, then the S2P, which has a tougher piece of glass on the back and costs more - and now the S which has both the cover glass and a better screen and maybe even some real functional improvements (see above). The original S2 and S2P seem to have had a fairly short production run, with deliveries occurring in 2010, 2011 and most of 2012, with the S launch at PK, fall of 2012.

My *impression* is that quite a few of the original S2 bodies were sent out as dealer demo bodies or promotional items; however, I think that the real sales are now picking up, especially to China.

I wonder whether the bodies sold as luxury items  to China will make it back out to the used camera market in HK in a few years.

I used to be a camera collector when I was a kid, and suddenly when I was 40 or so I realized I could take pictures with these things :)

Give us a few years and we may be back to the collector stage, all of us, except for Rob who will lean back in Ibiza, and watch the landscape sashay by through the prism of a Singapore Sling  :)

Edmund



Maybe Leica did not want to confuse their camera with THIS one (this is the first DSLR I ever owned)?  ;D

I actually really liked the files out of the Fuji and made a lot of nice images with it. It eventually died from the black death syndrome. I then got it fixed and sold it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 09:11:14 pm by eronald »
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EricWHiss

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2014, 10:29:31 pm »

Personally I would never even consider the Leica S, simply for the 2:3 aspect ratio which I really dislike.
+1
That's one of my biggest reasons to leave Leica for Rollei some years back.  I loved the leica glass, but people told me the Rollei 6000 series also had nice glass - and it did.  In fact I actually prefer the Schneider/Rollei for its more neutral look over the Leica which draws every image in a way that says 'this is not reality, this is a photograph.'     I never liked the 3::2 format at all.  When I had a chance, I asked Herr Kaufmann why he stuck with the 3::2 ratio with all digital cameras like the M8/M9 and S systems and his response was  (sorry can't recall his exact words) something like Leica invented 3::2 and it was in their DNA or something similar to that effect - that made it very clear they had no intention to consider a different format.   Oh well that's cool - it's their prerogative.  And maybe as BC and others say, it works ok for horizontal images.    You don't see a lot of people turning their M's on the side for portraits. 

I like square, 6x7, 4x5, and getting used to 3x4.   Somehow I figured most digital sensors would end up square - it just makes sense ergonomically to design a camera to be held in one position, and the lenses all project a circle.
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Telecaster

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2014, 11:09:27 pm »

I think square sensors would be great, and I'm also not fond of 3:2 (though I manage well enough with my film SLRs and rangefinders). But I actually like framing styles, along with film emulsions & digital processing techniques, that draw attention to the fact that photos are photos. For me the abstracted nature of the medium has long been a big part of the draw. That's probably why I enjoy the altered reality of many BC photos posted here.   :)

-Dave-
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wolfnowl

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2014, 11:11:44 pm »


No that's not true.

I love "good" photographers that do it for the love of photography.  I hate the word amateur or advanced amateur because 1. I hate to see anyone grouped in a class and 2.  There is something really special about photographing for the love of photography because that's how we all started...

Well said.

Mike.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2014, 02:46:31 am »

Hi,

They dropped the numbers. So there is M and there is S. Perhaps they didn't want to go dual digits on the M.

Best regards
Erik


I’m confused; the Leica S is the successor to the Leica S2?

What is it with Leica nomenclature?
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Theodoros

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2014, 06:42:36 am »

Undoubtedly, format ratio is a matter of personal taste, however, I don't think that "square" would be a wise choice for an MF maker to produce since its appliance is to a small percentage with respect to other formats. Additionally, a "square" FF sensor would only be applicable with Leaf shutter lenses since there is no focal plane shutter of the size made any more which would limit its use to only V-blads and Rolleis… I also believe that Leica's choice to use 3:2 ratio, is a wise one for the following reasons:
1. The advance to their system is more friendly to DSLR users.
2. They where able to reduce the mount to image area distance and thus make the camera compatible with others lenses and even made possible the integration of Leica S into an existing system easily.
3. It made calculation of AOV with respect to DSLRs easy (one has to subtract 20% out the focal length he uses and have exactly the 35mm equivalent focal length for the same AOV), Additionally the introduction of the 24mm lens solved the UWA capability of the camera.
4. The corner performance of the compatible lenses is greatly improved.
5. It gives additional choice to the Sinarbacks (which are all of 4:3 image area) without competing with them.
6. It improves "handhold ability" greatly than other MF systems.
 Take a Contax user for instance (my case) that wants to advance to a modern back, if he buys an S instead, his 35mm becomes a 28mm (35mm equivalent AOV), his 45-90 becomes an ideal 36-72 standard zoom, his 120mm Apo an excellent 1.2:1 macro of 96mm, and his 210mm a great 168mm telephoto, he only has to consider the 24mm if he wants to go wider (19mm equivalent). Additionally, he can keep his MS back and have ultimate still life performance, have 4:3 tethered in studio for fashion or portraiture …use film whenever he wants and even return to his Leica and use the same lenses for landscape or even walk around (!!!) camera. All that by investing not a penny more, than buying a new back. 
I bet that if Leica will release a couple of new adapters that will make Rollei lenses fully compatible and another for Mamyia 645 lenses or even more adapters for the various Bronica lenses, (all of which the intelligent mount design can use as fully dedicated via an adapter) there will be more trouble for MF competition… It will then have the widest base of lenses in the market by far and the widest base of possible customers without excluding current users of direct competition. Look how much it affected Hasselblad H sales and look at Hasselblad H S/H prices… imagine what may happen if they will offer an adapter for Phamyia too and serve via more adapters the (now homeless) older camera users?
Clearly image area size and the lesser resolution, doesn't seem to make a difference in performance for current MF users… The quality of the image is (at least) as su-pe-rb if compared with any competition, it's the solutions provided that make the difference and final cost.
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Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2014, 08:17:25 am »


1. The advance to their system is more friendly to DSLR users.



I find that an extraordinary assumption.

I worked for years with both Nikon F and Hasselblad 500 Series cameras. There was never any conflict. Each was automatically selected for the job I had to do; no confusion, no self-doubts. And that experience was common to every other pro I ever met.

If there was once a problem it was one lady client who once, when I had the 'blad up on the tripod, remarked that she preferred it when I used the 'smaller camera' because I would jump up and down and around so much more. Evidently, the showbiz was more important at that stage than the print. So yet again, it shows that not even the actual cost of the equipment matters that much to some clients: they neither know nor care about it. Just as BC remarks about his experience when he pulls out the tiny 'toy' he so loves. Terry Richardson has built a career around dumb cameras and risqué shots of famous ladies.

The immense advantage of square formats comes in two parts: you don't have to mess about with the tripod once you are set up; you can shoot anything within that shape and always find space to crop.

Other than that, the sheer pleasure of working with something whose design and consequent interface with you is always at its best is profound: anyone really, really enjoys working 2x3 formats in the vertical? Right.

And today, with the real/supposed(?) advantages of digital sensors and image quality, cropping is hardly a problem for anyone: real estate overkill is already here.

Rob C

Ken R

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2014, 08:29:24 am »

The choosing of a camera by a photographer will not always be a matter of technical factors but also personal preferences and passion.

Regarding the behavior of photographers during a client supervised shoot, well, the demeanor and attitude are obviously important, don't know about the physical antics however. 
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Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2014, 08:39:07 am »



Give us a few years and we may be back to the collector stage, all of us, except for Rob who will lean back in Ibiza, and watch the landscape sashay by through the prism of a Singapore Sling  :)

Edmund



Ibiza? Do you think I'm crazy? It's Mallorca where I'm marooned! Ibiza isn't even a Balearic Island - it's part of the Pitiusas! I can only surmise my message in a Coke never got to Paris... ;-)

Yeah, Ibiza is okay if you are a junkie, an alcoholic, under twenty-nine and have pots of trustafarian dosh to blow on a house away from the twin towns of hell. I worked there several times, two of those times before before I came to live here in Mallorca, and each time I prayed to get the hell off. When my late wife was undergoing radiotherapy in Palma, five days a week for five weeks, I think it was, we used to chat with a German fellow patient who lived in Ibiza. Her choices were either daily return flights to and from that island, or the rental of an apartment for the duration. Yep, it's for the young and the dealers. They can keep it. Funny you mention the 'Sling: 'they can keep it' was my reaction to it too when I bought them for the shooting party in the obligatory visit to Raffles Hotel. My initial reaction to the place? It made me think of an Indian railway station... I believe it's been redeveloped since '84.

But anyway, at least I'm happy to have seen these places. Did you also have a list where you could scratch things off as you realised them?

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 08:43:15 am by Rob C »
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Manoli

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2014, 08:53:05 am »

Ibiza? … Yep, it's for the young and the dealers. They can keep it.

And the uncle of your future King ?

[Rob - sorry, sorry - I couldn't resist - you know the druggie uncle, to the future English King, the ex-pat Scotsman. All said with a twinkle in his eye and a 'Seb Coe' spring in his gait … ]

Alex Salmond, where are you ?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 09:10:16 am by Manoli »
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Theodoros

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2014, 09:18:38 am »


I find that an extraordinary assumption.

I worked for years with both Nikon F and Hasselblad 500 Series cameras. There was never any conflict. Each was automatically selected for the job I had to do; no confusion, no self-doubts. And that experience was common to every other pro I ever met.

If there was once a problem it was one lady client who once, when I had the 'blad up on the tripod, remarked that she preferred it when I used the 'smaller camera' because I would jump up and down and around so much more. Evidently, the showbiz was more important at that stage than the print. So yet again, it shows that not even the actual cost of the equipment matters that much to some clients: they neither know nor care about it. Just as BC remarks about his experience when he pulls out the tiny 'toy' he so loves. Terry Richardson has built a career around dumb cameras and risqué shots of famous ladies.

The immense advantage of square formats comes in two parts: you don't have to mess about with the tripod once you are set up; you can shoot anything within that shape and always find space to crop.

Other than that, the sheer pleasure of working with something whose design and consequent interface with you is always at its best is profound: anyone really, really enjoys working 2x3 formats in the vertical? Right.

And today, with the real/supposed(?) advantages of digital sensors and image quality, cropping is hardly a problem for anyone: real estate overkill is already here.

Rob C
I've also worked for years with different formats and never hesitated on which to use… Still, "the advance to their (S) system is more friendly to DSLR users"… I don't see the relevance of your post -which has to do with one's ability to adopt in different formats- with one that needs no adaptation at all…
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Manoli

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2014, 09:25:33 am »

That's one of my biggest reasons to leave Leica for Rollei some years back. …   I never liked the 3::2 format at all.  When I had a chance, I asked Herr Kaufmann why he stuck with the 3::2 ratio with all digital cameras like the M8/M9 and S systems and his response was  (sorry can't recall his exact words) something like Leica invented 3::2 and it was in their DNA...

Yup, and I think he was right. It's worth remembering that the concept of the Leica was born 100 years ago, this year. 100 years ! Oscar Barnack and his use of 35mm film was the precursor to much of what we have and use today - I don't think it either wise or appropriate to chuck that sort of legacy out on a whim.

Leica now have Sinar, if they want to adapt to other formats they have options, without 'ignoring' their heritage.
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2014, 09:28:46 am »

Is there an official list of "Places that have named a drink"?

I've been to that bar in Venice :)
Edmund


But anyway, at least I'm happy to have seen these places. Did you also have a list where you could scratch things off as you realised them?

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 09:34:03 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2014, 09:44:53 am »


Leica now have Sinar, if they want to adapt to other formats they have options, without 'ignoring' their heritage.
That is the perhaps the "key factor" that many ignore… Leica now offers from MF-DSLR up to View camera+MFDB solutions. The only thing that is "missing" (it's not, one can use Contax 645 to solve the issue) is an interchangeable back MF camera that would be able to use the sinarbacks and that its lenses would be fully compatible with Leica S… I won't be surprised if Leica will expand further by resurrecting Contax 645 or if they will develop a new interchangeable back MF camera that would "bridge" the gap… A camera that would be able to provide a platform for the  Sinarbacks and that its lenses would be fully compatible with Leica S via an adapter.
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Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2014, 10:30:41 am »

I've also worked for years with different formats and never hesitated on which to use… Still, "the advance to their (S) system is more friendly to DSLR users"… I don't see the relevance of your post -which has to do with one's ability to adopt in different formats- with one that needs no adaptation at all…


The relevance is in its direct reply to your statement in your Point 1.

If you, too, found no difficulties in switching formats, it makes your statement even the more surprising. That's all.

Rob C
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