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Author Topic: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question  (Read 39091 times)

Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 04:55:38 am »

And I like square. Am I the only one who loved the Hassy SQUARE?

J hasn't shown us any of those wonderful S files yet, although he writes very poetically about them :)

Edmund




No, you are not: I loved it too, and still do.

2x3 format is pleasing for horizontals, but too thin for verticals. I remember that in all my full-page fashion shots I had to lose height out of 135mm film... that was risky! Or I had to lose sides in 6x6, so you never win. What was delightful about 6x6 was the camera stayed put on the tripod and you didn't have to fight gravity and turning forces about a screw doing verticals with heavy lenses.

However, even if you don't have to fit verticals to pages, a vertical 2x3 still looks uncomfortable simply as a print on its own. IMO.

Rob C

torger

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 06:48:49 am »

Format can indeed create some angst.

I'm looking for digital back upgrade, either CFV-50 or Aptus-II 10. The CFV is the worse feature-wise but it's 4:3, while the Aptus is 3.1:2 (ie even wider than 3:2)... Haven't decided yet, but my feeling this day is that the format is more important that the other features. Sure I can crop, but the framing experience when shooting is more pleasing if it's closer to the target format.
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rsmphoto

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 08:42:23 am »



I haven't tethered it yet, I hear it's a little slow in tethering, but that's not the main goal and instant tethering isn't high on my list for a lot of reasons I don't want to go into here.


If I have any issue with Leica it's the same I have with most companies in that tethering is not high on their list with smaller cameras like the M series.   Same with Olympus and Fuji.

(this is a shame because the Leica M ccd cameras work beautifully with studio flash like profoto.  The skintones are just killer good and so far the S2 is a very close match.

If the M series would tether, I could go totally Leica for all my still cameras.



I agree that Leica needs continue their effort to enhance the tethered experience.  As mentioned, I use the S/S2 tethered pretty much exclusively.  Yes, it's a bit slower than Hasselblad with FW800, but really not that noticeable, but then I'm not shooting in a rapid fire fashion either.  I would hope/expect that the next version of the S (which will likely be CMOS) will have at least USB3.0 if not TB (TB probably a pipe dream).  The flow with Leica Image Shuttle 2 (which offers full control over the camera) and LR5 is extremely stable.

As for the M's and tethering, sadly the M9 can't be tethered, but the M240 (CMOS) can currently be tethered with the addition of their grip, but I'm unfamiliar with it at this point.  It was in using an M9 that I became interested in the S2 originally - just loved the files the M9 produced. And now I have an M as well, and will eventually begin to use it tethered, but I have to say I'm just plain spoiled by the S system.  Did I mention how how impressive the lenses were......? ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 09:33:49 am by rsmphoto »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 10:25:57 am »

I gotta admit... the S2 is damn sexy.  I kinda want one.  I may have a camera problem...

dfarkas

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 12:39:16 pm »

What's the difference between the first and second version of the S? There were some AF issues, I remember, but for all I know they were solved by an update?

Edmund

There were actually 80 improvements from the S2 to the S (Typ 006). The biggest ones were:

  • All of the internal electronics were updated, resulting in increased DR, lower noise, better detail and the ability to push the files a bit more in post
  • Brand new in-house AF sensor and AF algorithms with faster and more accurate AF performance, and which incorporate white balance in order to perform better in artificially-lit, low-light scenarios
  • Built-in GPS which automatically sets time and time zone - handy for frequent world travelers and landscape photographers working in remote areas
  • Virtual horizon - both on rear LCD and always-on one in the viewfinder LED display
  • Slightly larger viewfinder with 98% coverage
  • ISO displayed in viewfinder
  • Joystick control for easy navigation
  • Expanded ISO range with improved quality at base ISO and less noise at higher settings
  • 922,000 pixel rear LCD with Gorilla Glass with true 8-bit per pixel color rendering and capable of displaying 100% sRGB gamut
  • Revamped GUI with easier navigation
  • Doubled buffer memory from 1GB to 2GB, allowing for 30-32 shot DNG bursts - now can shoot about 60 frames per minute

Separate of technical improvements, Leica also improved on the warranty. The S2 came with a 1-year standard warranty and the S2-P came with a 2-year Platinum Warranty. The S (Typ 006) now comes with a 3-year warranty and provides for a loaner camera during any repair, standard, in addition to the 90-day hot swap replacement for any initial defects.

There are some other really nice firmware improvements as well. For a full write-up on all the changes and additional features, you can check out my coverage from Photokina when the S was introduced:

Photokina 2012: Day 2 - The Leica S (Part 1)

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bcooter

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2014, 01:00:36 pm »

I looked at the S vs. the S2 and most things didn't interest me that much, like gorilla glass, gps and the virtual horizon.  I can line things up and in focus testing, I couldn't tell much if any difference.

Not that I don't find an S worth it, I jsut bought now because I assumed the next S or for that matter the next anything would have a cmos sensor and that I'm not that wild about the cmos look.

Buying the S2 wasn't a hard leap for me as I already had full Contax lenses and the adapter and autofocus actually works well, (which is rarely the case in these situations), so my buy in was decent.

I'll probably buy one of two Leica lenses, mainly the 120 as that's a manual focus lens in Contax land and f4 in contax land so it makes sense.

Later I might add an S, though I'll wait for the early adopters to jump on a cmos S and buy the ccd version.

The only price issues are the same as any photographic item.  Small things like batteries, charges, are high but then again anything with the tag photographic is always high.

Great camera though and I can put m 110 f2 Zeiss lens on it and shoot 9 out of 10 frames in focus working manually.  I could never do that with the contax prism and wouldn't dare trying that with a 35mm dslr, without live view.

Also it's a leica.   That means something positive to some people, to some it's a negative.

But the bottom line to me is not the brand or the format, or even the form factor.   I can use any camera and am just as comfortable using the 43 olympus, a RED and my Contax as I am the Leica.

What the Leica allowed me was to extend the life of my contax lenses and bodies.  It just offered more opportunity to work with medium format in areas that usually fall under 35mm domain.



iMO

BC


There were actually 80 improvements from the S2 to the S (Typ 006). The biggest ones were:

  • All of the internal electronics were updated, resulting in increased DR, lower noise, better detail and the ability to push the files a bit more in post
  • Brand new in-house AF sensor and AF algorithms with faster and more accurate AF performance, and which incorporate white balance in order to perform better in artificially-lit, low-light scenarios
  • Built-in GPS which automatically sets time and time zone - handy for frequent world travelers and landscape photographers working in remote areas
  • Virtual horizon - both on rear LCD and always-on one in the viewfinder LED display
  • Slightly larger viewfinder with 98% coverage
  • ISO displayed in viewfinder
  • Joystick control for easy navigation
  • Expanded ISO range with improved quality at base ISO and less noise at higher settings
  • 922,000 pixel rear LCD with Gorilla Glass with true 8-bit per pixel color rendering and capable of displaying 100% sRGB gamut
  • Revamped GUI with easier navigation
  • Doubled buffer memory from 1GB to 2GB, allowing for 30-32 shot DNG bursts - now can shoot about 60 frames per minute

Separate of technical improvements, Leica also improved on the warranty. The S2 came with a 1-year standard warranty and the S2-P came with a 2-year Platinum Warranty. The S (Typ 006) now comes with a 3-year warranty and provides for a loaner camera during any repair, standard, in addition to the 90-day hot swap replacement for any initial defects.

There are some other really nice firmware improvements as well. For a full write-up on all the changes and additional features, you can check out my coverage from Photokina when the S was introduced:

Photokina 2012: Day 2 - The Leica S (Part 1)


« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 01:18:53 pm by bcooter »
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bcooter

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 01:41:35 pm »

There were actually 80 improvements from the S2 to the S

Actually, there is a lesson to be learned from Fuji and olympus.  They both have gone back to generation old cameras and upgraded them for free using firmware.

The omd em-5 just receive smaller and better focus points, faster autofocus and the use of an ad on 2 million dot evf (which is like a $200 item).

I think Fuji went back two or three generations to improve their cameras.

This tells me a lot about a company and makes me less hesitant to invest.

When I bought my M8 it would tether.  Albiet it would tether 5 frames then crash, but it would tether, then the whole idea was dropped.   Had they adopted the olympus/fuji business model it would probably tether better today than the day I bought it.

But to tell you the truth, except for the smaller less expensive cameras I'm really not an early adopter with anything electronic.   We're under too much pressure to be beta testers and as much as this stuff costs, even less expensive cameras, it make no sense to constantly upgrade every time a press release is announced.

I'm all for improving the breed, but more lens options, for secure firmware, added camera functions mean as much to a professional as 10 more megapixels.

I think we are now into a territory where format is not that relevant.   Use and final quality is.    When I pull out a little 4/3 camera or the S2 no client ever asks me about megapixels, cmos, vs. ccd, iso, viewfinders, they just care about what comes up on the screen and honestly when I put the olympus to my eye, I don't see it as 1/2 the frame of a 35mm I just see it as a 4:3 format camera and I shoot.

We all know below the skin of these cameras is the mechanics of the terminator.    Cameras may look like their film counterparts but in reality there just computers with a lens.   It's nice the options we have, I like the retro look that is present today, but we all know that the only thing that matters is the result and even inexpensive cameras like the 4/3 system get expensive once you go to back ups and multiple lens options.  You can drop 10 grand on this little cameras before you know it and in medium format world where ten grand is just the used starting point, it's still a fairly big hit.

My point, if Leica or any company wants to prove that the is is in it for the long haull, take a page out of olympus and fuji's book and keep improving their previous cameras.  

But then again, it's a great camera, so wtf.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:52:16 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 09:39:46 pm »

So far we have seen no images from J, our resident philosographer.

In the mean time, I have located an interesting review of the original Leica S2.


It is interesting to me because like me this guy had a Phase back, like me he had enduring focus issues with the Phamiya, although he found the Phamiya files wonderful.

And again like me this guy has a 1Ds3; anyone who has a 1Ds3 knows what solid usable camera equipment feels like, what a good finder looks like, and what a decent 35mm file should look like :)

I suggest people take the time to read the review - and the postscript page 5; I can assure people here that any camera that has a better finder than the Canon 1Ds3 has a very, very very good finder.

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Review/Leica_S2_Page_1.html

Edmund


Actually, there is a lesson to be learned from Fuji and olympus.  They both have gone back to generation old cameras and upgraded them for free using firmware.

The omd em-5 just receive smaller and better focus points, faster autofocus and the use of an ad on 2 million dot evf (which is like a $200 item).

I think Fuji went back two or three generations to improve their cameras.

This tells me a lot about a company and makes me less hesitant to invest.

When I bought my M8 it would tether.  Albiet it would tether 5 frames then crash, but it would tether, then the whole idea was dropped.   Had they adopted the olympus/fuji business model it would probably tether better today than the day I bought it.

But to tell you the truth, except for the smaller less expensive cameras I'm really not an early adopter with anything electronic.   We're under too much pressure to be beta testers and as much as this stuff costs, even less expensive cameras, it make no sense to constantly upgrade every time a press release is announced.

I'm all for improving the breed, but more lens options, for secure firmware, added camera functions mean as much to a professional as 10 more megapixels.

I think we are now into a territory where format is not that relevant.   Use and final quality is.    When I pull out a little 4/3 camera or the S2 no client ever asks me about megapixels, cmos, vs. ccd, iso, viewfinders, they just care about what comes up on the screen and honestly when I put the olympus to my eye, I don't see it as 1/2 the frame of a 35mm I just see it as a 4:3 format camera and I shoot.

We all know below the skin of these cameras is the mechanics of the terminator.    Cameras may look like their film counterparts but in reality there just computers with a lens.   It's nice the options we have, I like the retro look that is present today, but we all know that the only thing that matters is the result and even inexpensive cameras like the 4/3 system get expensive once you go to back ups and multiple lens options.  You can drop 10 grand on this little cameras before you know it and in medium format world where ten grand is just the used starting point, it's still a fairly big hit.

My point, if Leica or any company wants to prove that the is is in it for the long haull, take a page out of olympus and fuji's book and keep improving their previous cameras.  

But then again, it's a great camera, so wtf.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 10:01:05 pm by eronald »
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JV

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 09:44:43 am »

Great camera though and I can put m 110 f2 Zeiss lens on it and shoot 9 out of 10 frames in focus working manually.  I could never do that with the contax prism and wouldn't dare trying that with a 35mm dslr, without live view.

Does the Leica have some type of focus confirmation for manual focusing?

When I bought my M8 it would tether.  Albiet it would tether 5 frames then crash, but it would tether, then the whole idea was dropped.   Had they adopted the olympus/fuji business model it would probably tether better today than the day I bought it.

The new Fuji X-T1 supposedly has a wireless remote control/tethering option for Android and iOS. 

I am very impressed with Fuji.  If they keep up the same level of excellence and don't surrender to the temptation to go FF they will eventually be very successful.

Their willingness to listen to their customers and continuously improve their products is setting new standards.
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dfarkas

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2014, 10:22:47 am »

Does the Leica have some type of focus confirmation for manual focusing?


Yes, there is focus confirmation in the viewfinder.

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JV

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2014, 10:31:25 am »

Yes, there is focus confirmation in the viewfinder.



Thanks David!

Additional question.  Are you aware of any Leica S shooters not using LightRoom?  And what their experiences are?
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2014, 11:14:03 am »

I really wonder why nobody makes something that competes with Lightroom; if the Gimp guys brought their process to bear, the results could be interesting. The big weakness of Lightroom is file quality; I used to redo all the full-page stuff with DPP and all the smaller illustrative images I just handed in Lightroom- converted Jpegs.  

Edmund
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robert zimmerman

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2014, 01:07:26 pm »

There's a pretty simple checklist for what a camera needs to do for my line of work (people and fashion photography)

These are the must haves:
18mp +
Tether (fast and secure)
Flash sync at at least 1/125th
Good Iso to 800
Have an excellent set of lenses at a wide variety of focal lengths
Good skin tones and color
Have a good enough LCD screen to judge sharpness when shooting outdoors untethered
Autofocus

And here are not must haves but nice to haves:
CCD look
Video
very Fast portrait lense(s)
Good handling
Good Prism viewfinder and waist level finder
Right angle battery grip
Good up to Iso 3200
Shoot at around 4 FPS

No camera covers them all, but the only professional cameras out there (Canon, Nikon, Phase, Leaf, Hassy, Leica. Sinar, Pentax) that doesn't cover all of the first list is Leica (And maybe Pentax).
Otherwise, if it could tether fast, it might cover as much or more than almost all of the other cameras, besides the Canon/Nikon.
But The CCD Look and Lens quality out weigh all the other "nice to haves" for my line of work. And skin tones and color are surely better than Canon/Nikon.

If I could tether the Leica with Capture One, I'd own it and sell everything else and rent a Canon when I needed speed.
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dfarkas

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2014, 04:19:14 pm »

Thanks David!

Additional question.  Are you aware of any Leica S shooters not using LightRoom?  And what their experiences are?

Yes, there are some S shooters using C1.  For tethering, they use Leica Image Shuttle to put images into a watched folder that C1 picks up. A while back, Leica provided an ICC camera profile for use in C1 that greatly improved color on S DNGs. Prior to this, C1 would just apply a generic DNG profile which was not optimized for S files. So, while there is no direct tethering into C1, the solution does work well and the camera can still be fully controlled from the computer with Leica Image Shuttle.

But.... last we checked (any C1 experts can weigh in on this one if my info is out of date) there was no way to apply a profile automatically as images came into C1. This means that the ICC profile needs to be manually applied to the files after capture, which can be a nuisance while shooting. In LR, I generally set an import preset to apply the profile, auto lens corrections, sharpening and tone curve so that as soon as an image pops up on screen, it looks the way I want/expect it to.

Our personal experience has been that LR yields the best image quality with S files. With automatic lens profiles, camera profiles and specific DNG support from Adobe, results are easier to achieve with LR. Keep in mind that Leica has been closely collaborating with Adobe on raw conversion since 2008 and image quality from the same files continues to improve with each subsequent release of LR.

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David Farkas
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Telecaster

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2014, 04:31:49 pm »

So far we have seen no images from J, our resident philosographer.

Give the man time...though I too am eager to live vicariously with the S beast.   :D

-Dave-
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synn

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2014, 12:36:37 am »

I really wonder why nobody makes something that competes with Lightroom; if the Gimp guys brought their process to bear, the results could be interesting. The big weakness of Lightroom is file quality; I used to redo all the full-page stuff with DPP and all the smaller illustrative images I just handed in Lightroom- converted Jpegs.  

Edmund

If one isn't working with a lot of files (wedding, events, sports etc.) Capture One Pro's file management is quite decent. After LR, C1Pro's DAM is what I prefer to the other softwares I have used (Capture NX2, Raw Therapee, Photo Ninja, DxO Optics Pro).
LR shines for the quantity based shooter. Most of the influencers online engage in these short of shooting styles, so it's no surprise they recommend LR to everyone. Utmost image quality is not a concern for these shooters.

I leave Lightroom for travel images and do all my fine art work in C1 Pro now.
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Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2014, 05:21:23 am »

Hey, I'm sure the images will be very good, rather like his Red, Contax, Canon, Olympus... images are very good. I'm also pretty sure why they'll be very good.


Yup, and it'll have precious little to do with marques!

Rob C

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2014, 05:42:31 am »

Hi,

It may to have to do with R&R marque…

Joke aside, I appreciate BC's postings. I of course live in a different world, having a salaried job in technical business and shooting landscape for pleasure. So tethering, skin tones, electronic flash is nothing I have particular interest in. I guess that the pros sometimes forget that this business would be much smaller without us amateurs.

Best regards
Erik



Yup, and it'll have precious little to do with marques!

Rob C
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torger

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2014, 06:45:49 am »

I leave Lightroom for travel images and do all my fine art work in C1 Pro now.

For landscape LR has some advantages, as their tonemapping algorithm is a lot better than C1 so if you shoot high DR scenes I would prefer LR. Personally I use Lumariver HDR for the tonemapping part though, which is just as good or even better than LR (of course, I wrote the algorithm ;) ) and finalize in RawTherapee and possibly a photo editor if I need more local edits.
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2014, 08:23:40 am »

Hey, I'm sure the images will be very good, rather like his Red, Contax, Canon, Olympus... images are very good. I'm also pretty sure why they'll be very good.

Yes; this is why I've been hoping we'd get Raw takes now (which he used to post a bit years ago) rather than final work.
I would really like to see what the skin tones and texture look like out of camera, using his lighting.
Most of what I've seen so far comes from the women like unfed vampires, men like rock faces school.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 08:44:28 am by eronald »
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