The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Just a few points on reproduction, that is nothing I have experience with, but I still feel I may have a point.

1) To get an accurate representation of the colours you need pigments that have the similar spectral absorbation characteristics to the original paint

2) A profile matching the pigments/colour in the original is needed

3) Luminance ratio is probably close to print, while normal profiles are intended to render a wide luminance range on narrow luminance range media

4) Multishot is probably good, as it eliminates colour aliasing. Non OLP filtered bayer is probably not optimal for repro if the original has fine details

Quite a few other aspects, but clearly, repro is a different field from subjective photography.

Best regards
Erik

You are right on all your observations… If I only can help you out, I would say that: To do painting reproduction (reproduction, not taking pictures of paintings) is the ultimate photography, simply because you have to move beyond theory… You have to remember that a painter's colour is not 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 bits... thus, you have to move beyond common knowledge in photography (i.e. to do what Ansel Adams did and challenge theory) it's not that theory isn't valid, it's that you have to find ways to do scientific photography which means that you have to eliminate the errors that the equipment produces within theory. That's why only very few people do real painting reproduction… Remember what I said before? "You have to build your own profiles !", this means that no automatic calibration is good enough for paintings, you have to correct the (inevitable) errors that are involved in the process... There are perhaps half a hundred of parameters to control, the first one is to record the painting in "true colour"… this is the start, you need an MS MFDB! …then there is to do the capture right (about five parameters), then there is to have the capture profiles right, then…..

[Theodoros]

Hi,

Just a few points on reproduction, that is nothing I have experience with, but I still feel I may have a point.

1) To get an accurate representation of the colours you need pigments that have the similar spectral absorbation characteristics to the original paint

2) A profile matching the pigments/colour in the original is needed

3) Luminance ratio is probably close to print, while normal profiles are intended to render a wide luminance range on narrow luminance range media

4) Multishot is probably good, as it eliminates colour aliasing. Non OLP filtered bayer is probably not optimal for repro if the original has fine details

Quite a few other aspects, but clearly, repro is a different field from subjective photography.

Best regards
Erik

For the first three…  Try it this way and tell me what you think… I think it will still be a "photograph of a painting", rather than "reproduction" of it…
For the fourth… Aliasing (the absence of… which is welcome) has nothing to do with using MS… it's all doing the capture in "true colour" without interpolation involved…  Think of it as a Hi-end single ended stereo that one is using a poor cartridge… If you have the rest perfect, you'll still be "treating" the wrong signal, you should have the best possible cartridge, then look for the best tonearm to make it full justice, then the cable to transfer the signal, then….

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

That is probably a good thing.

Best regards
Erik

Leaf has a profile specifically oriented towards reproduction.

[bcooter]

Yes Indeed.  I use AWB on my M9 in mixed lighting.  It isn't accurate but boy is it pretty.

I really like S files, like larger M9 files. 

This thread has moved all over the place, mostly towards what is "correct" color reproduction.  For paintings, achriving, that makes sense, for fashion, the images leica posted it's all a matter of taste.

It took me one look at an S2 file and my feeling was it looked like my m8 files on people which sold me then and there.

Once in a processor we all know that can change, but starting pretty usually ends up pretty.

Honestly, the format, either in dimension or size is not relevant to me.   What is relevant is it tethers, it has pretty color, it seems robust, I could use my current lens set.

It ticked off a lot of points for me and it offers me a lot of lens options and I am positive Leica making smart adapters was a great move because even though I started with one body and a battery, I'll place many more orders in the Leica S system as time goes on.   Actually this week.

Now I won't say the camera is perfect, nothing is and to me the biggest leap with this camera was the fact I've shot so much with the olympus m43 cameras and evf.    When I first shot the S2 I would change the shutter look through the viewfinder and wonder why nothing changed.    I guess that's the opposite effect from ovf users to evf users.

I will say I think Leica has built a presence in the market and with Sinar, if they finally do something with that brand, they will cover a lot of territory.

IMO

BC

[Theodoros]

Leaf has a profile specifically oriented towards reproduction.

Who is using it for paintings?

[Manoli]

This thread has moved all over the place […] Now I won't say the camera is perfect, nothing is and to me the biggest leap with this camera was the fact I've shot so much with the olympus m43 cameras and evf.

Dear Mr Russell,
Ever hear of the parable of the Monkey King and the Buddha ? A few weeks ago, by accident, I came across this

" I have not inherited Olympus DNA; nor have I been taught about this culture. I never studied it. I simply love to take photographs, and if I needed something for that purpose, I would do my utmost to create it. […] Many of the cameras that I have developed have been unique Olympus-style products. And there's a reason for that. I was simply trying to make things that you couldn't buy anywhere.

When the Monkey King boasted that he could fly to the end of the Earth, the Buddha told him to go. And indeed he flew to the end of the Earth and returned after signing his name on the wall. When he got back, the Buddha smiled and showed him the inside of his finger. “Here is your signature,” he said. If you think about it, everything is in the hand of the Buddha.

[…] and that those who love Olympus cameras will remain loyal users. Olympus cameras are a little unusual, but I hope that you will continue to understand and support those cameras.   "

- Yoshihisa Maltani, Olympus Corporation
(camera designer ... involved in the development of many (Olympus) cameras that ..became milestones in world camera history)
- extract from the the history of Olympus (www.olympus-global.com/en/corc/history/lecture/lecture2/part17.html)
--

Well BC, when I read this , just thought 'BC' . If he could read your words these last months, I'm sure that you'd bring more than just a smile to his face. I doubt anyone would have given him more gratification. And yup,  this is posted as a compliment - just in case there was any doubt.

--
Sorry guys, off topic, I know - but …

[rsmphoto]

Honestly, the format, either in dimension or size is not relevant to me.   What is relevant is it tethers, it has pretty color, it seems robust, I could use my current lens set.

+1

[Atina]

I've found one famous Australian photographer who uses S as his main camera – Nick Rains!

Since I see that he is a member here, I'm hoping that he will chime in eventually.

Some examples of his work:

http://www.nickrainsimaging.com/?q=Stirling%20Ranges%20aerial

What he had to say, among other things:

I have been using the S2 for over two years and can attest to the S-System lenses being just stunning - better than anything I have ever used which includes, Hasselblad, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Schneider, Pentax 67, Mamiya, Olympus, Canon, Nikon etc etc. The 120 macro is crazy sharp with a superb bokeh - I'd love to put it on some sort of hi-res MDB like an IQ280 to see what it can really do.

One thing to consider regarding cost is that they are virtually future proof - the 37.5MB sensor in the S2 and S does not come close to doing justice to the lenses' resolving abilities. Anything they might bring out with a higher pixel count will work with these lenses, and they are built to last too. I'd wouldn't be surprised if they would resolve fully on a sensor of over 120MP.

I am still waiting to get my hands on the new 24mm, in fact any of the new stuff. It's slow arriving in Australia, the M240 has only just arrived but I expect to get my grubby paws on the new toys in the next few weeks with a bit of luck.

The quote was taken from here.

[JohnBrew]

I recently exchanged emails with Nick because I was contemplating an S purchase. Nick has his S on the shelf for now as he is using an M and various lens for travel. If you go to his site www.nickrains.com and click on his "What's in the bag?" you will see that he has dropped the S. He told me he will return to it (the S) at some time. He also added that the lack of a really wide was hurting him and he is currently using the 18 on the M240.

[Atina]

What is he using for his latest ND5 project? Shark Bay, if I'm correct. An M?

Everywhere I looked where he talks about the S, he seems super happy.

There was nothing positive about the S in the e-mails? I think that when he shot those Stirling Ranges aerials above for another ND5 project he was using an older version of the camera.

[Telecaster]

Someone like Nick Rains is bound to use different equipment for different approaches and in different situations. No biggie. I wouldn't pull out a 645D to take happy snaps at a dinner party just as I wouldn't take (only) an iPhone on one of Michael's Antarctica trips.   

-Dave-

[bcooter]

Someone like Nick Rains is bound to use different equipment for different approaches and in different situations. No biggie. I wouldn't pull out a 645D to take happy snaps at a dinner party just as I wouldn't take (only) an iPhone on one of Michael's Antarctica trips.   

-Dave-

Sometimes the wrong camera makes the best look.   

It's a formatted follow the leader world.   The professional worlds has begun to think the big camera is a d800 or 5d3, the fun camera is the iphone and there is a world of stuff out there that is not only good but makes beautiful images.

When I travel to one of our studios and am on my way to an editing rather than shooting session, I load up all my 43 cameras, because they're easy to carry and cover so much territory.

I keep lighting and grip in every city I have a facility, but with the mirrorless cameras I can shoot motion, stills, throw on some crazy lenses like the boris tilt shift, or a Nikon 50 f1.2 with a metabones and get a unique look.

I'll shoot with anything on a whim though I just loathe getting caught up in the I am shooting this so I must use that because everyone else does.

I am starting to dig the Leica S2, but if I rounded a corner and some guy pulled a gun, I'd toss him the Leica before I'd hand over the olympus.

Makes no sense (I know) but hey who said logical was part of the photographers dna?

IMO

BC

[bcooter]

Dear Mr Russell,
Ever hear of the parable of the Monkey King and the Buddha ? A few weeks ago, by accident, I came across this

Thank You.

[ErikKaffehr]

So, now we know. BC is not Mr. Spock…

Regarding the Leica S, it is nice to hear that Leica has built a photographers camera intended for the 21-th century. I won't buy, to many greenbacks, but still nice to see.

Best regards
Erik

Makes no sense (I know) but hey who said logical was part of the photographers dna?

IMO

BC

[RVB]

I recently exchanged emails with Nick because I was contemplating an S purchase. Nick has his S on the shelf for now as he is using an M and various lens for travel. If you go to his site www.nickrains.com and click on his "What's in the bag?" you will see that he has dropped the S. He told me he will return to it (the S) at some time. He also added that the lack of a really wide was hurting him and he is currently using the 18 on the M240.

The S24mm is a 19mm equivalent.. not much of a difference to the M18mm... heavier of course but thats no surprise..

[Telecaster]

Sometimes the wrong camera makes the best look.

Indeed. I'm headed to the Grand Canyon fairly soon, mainly 'cuz I need to see some beauty after the dogshit winter we've been having. Now snow & ice can be beautiful too, and I'd love to see some at the GC (as I have on previous visits), but there's been a meanness to our weather that just makes you feel grey inside. Anyway, I'm torn on what gear to take along. I like traveling light, so no more than one system. If the weather is pleasant the Pentax would be ideal. But I'd really like to shoot video too, particularly some time-lapse stuff. Thus the E-M1 with its intervalometer and 10 fps (output) stills-to-video feature would seem to be the better choice. But, I could use my iPhone for time-lapse and still take the Pentax. Or I could take timed stills with the Pentax and turn 'em into time-lapse sequences later on. This last option is what I'm leaning towards...using the 645D to create videos.   

-Dave-

[peterv]

Or I could take timed stills with the Pentax and turn 'em into time-lapse sequences later on. This last option is what I'm leaning towards...using the 645D to create videos.   

That's a nice idea! I might want to try that with my S2. What software would you use in post to make the time-lapse video?

[Telecaster]

That's a nice idea! I might want to try that with my S2. What software would you use in post to make the time-lapse video?

Dunno yet. Shoot first, ask questions later!   

-Dave-

[ErikKaffehr]

Edmund,

Thanks for an interesting insight!

Best regards
Erik

When a manufacturer takes the decision to produce and sell a camera, they don't *exactly* know themselves what the imagery is going to look like.
Leica at PK, on announcing the S2, I had a conversation with them about the UV sensitivity they had discovered in the sensor which had been made for them. I confirmed that attempting to deal with this in software was not viable, and they indicated that rather than rework the sensor cover glass, they were going to incorporate UV filtration in every Leica S lens to deal with this issue. Filtration as we all know is a contentious issue because it changes the way the sensor sees visible light that is close to the cutoff color (blue), and this is dependent on the angle of incidence.

Interestingly, a friend of mine with whom I was working on a project this year was also designing a camera and hit similar issues, and ended up buying UV absorbing glass from Schott that had been designed ... for Leica

I have no way of knowing whether the S has the same (weak-filtering) cover glass on the sensor as the S2; but I would expect color to be markedly different between an S2 used with a Contax lens and an S2 used with a Leica lens ...

This type of issue explains why there are so few images available at launch: Until production really starts, and the firmware and hardware is frozen, nobody can be completely sure of the results from the camera.

Edmund

[RVB]

Edmund,

Thanks for an interesting insight!

Best regards
Erik

Erik/Edmund

This might be interesting to you. they're just jpegs which is of limited use but gives something to look at.. Contax glass vs Leica S glass on S2..http://www.reddotforum.com/showthread.php/1354-Leica-S2-and-Contax-45-90-4.5

Rob