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Author Topic: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question  (Read 39092 times)

Atina

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The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« on: January 29, 2014, 06:15:18 am »

Why do you think The New Leica S is a camera less mentioned and with low adoptions rated, apart from its price? Is it a case of offering too little for too much? Is it a camera for "rich orthodontists", with insufficient usability for "real pros", whatever your definition of a "pro" is?

What do you find to be its advantages, and what its flaws?

Do you know of any professional photographers who use it as their main workhorse camera?
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peterv

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 08:18:13 am »


Why do you think The New Leica S is a camera less mentioned and with low adoptions rated, apart from its price? Is it a case of offering too little for too much? Is it a camera for "rich orthodontists", with insufficient usability for "real pros", whatever your definition of a "pro" is?

The user base on this forum is not so large, but it's a good system. The 30 x 45 mm sensor is not always considered 'real' MF. The S lenses are very good, no question. It's a relatively new system but it gets more and more regocnition amongst 'pro's' and 'highend amateurs' alike.

Do you know of any professional photographers who use it as their main workhorse camera?

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rsmphoto

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 11:13:27 am »

Why do you think The New Leica S is a camera less mentioned and with low adoptions rated, apart from its price? Is it a case of offering too little for too much? Is it a camera for "rich orthodontists", with insufficient usability for "real pros", whatever your definition of a "pro" is?

What do you find to be its advantages, and what its flaws?

Do you know of any professional photographers who use it as their main workhorse camera?

I moved from Hasselblad to the Leica S a year and a half ago, shooting architecture tethered with Leica Image Shuttle 2 and LR5.  Rock solid reliable, never ever a crash while tethered or a lens connection issue, (two things that beleaguered me for many years with H), beautiful color, exceptional lenses from center to edge, batteries that last forever, excellent and supportive dealer network, and it's completely weather proof (which proved useful for an exterior  shoot in Canada where it snowed and sleeted for days).  Yeah, it's my workhorse.
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JV

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 12:42:38 pm »

I moved from Hasselblad to the Leica S a year and a half ago, shooting architecture tethered with Leica Image Shuttle 2 and LR5.  Rock solid reliable, never ever a crash while tethered or a lens connection issue, (two things that beleaguered me for many years with H), beautiful color, exceptional lenses from center to edge, batteries that last forever, excellent and supportive dealer network, and it's completely weather proof (which proved useful for an exterior  shoot in Canada where it snowed and sleeted for days).  Yeah, it's my workhorse.

Did you continue to use your Hasselblad lenses with an adapter?  Or switch entirely to Leica lenses? 
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craigrudlin

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 01:53:05 pm »

The draw of the leica s lenses is exceptional, truly 3 dimensional, with superb micro contrast.
The camera itself is extremely comfortable-- the handling of a pro dsrl with the output of MF.
The ergonomics are excellent, simplicity itself.  You can concentrate on your image and not on
the camera per se.  I use it professionally for landscapes, abstracts, old buildings, etc. (not
studio, fashion or product).  It is definitely a pro camera.  See  www.rudlinfineart.com  under
galleries-> portfolios  and then look at iceland, carrie furnace, old cars, old trucks as these
portfolios were shot with the Leica S2. 

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amsp

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 02:36:05 pm »

Personally I would never even consider the Leica S, simply for the 2:3 aspect ratio which I really dislike.
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alan_b

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 02:45:03 pm »

I moved from Hasselblad to the Leica S a year and a half ago, shooting architecture tethered with Leica Image Shuttle 2 and LR5.

What are you using for perspective control - post processing?
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rsmphoto

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 06:07:45 pm »

Did you continue to use your Hasselblad lenses with an adapter?  Or switch entirely to Leica lenses? 

Initially I used my H lenses and HTS with the s->h adapter. That was fine, but eventually I bought the 30-90 Elmar-S, truly an exceptional zoom, then a 24 Elmar-S.
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Ken R

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 06:20:50 pm »

I have used ad handled the Leica S and a few Lenses briefly. It is an excellent DSLR. Wow. The body feels very high quality, ditto the lenses. But the image quality of the sensor is not extraordinary although it is very good. In the end since I wanted a system mainly for landscapes I chose the IQ160 which had image quality well above and beyond the Leica S. But If I were looking for a system for photographing mainly people but also some architecture and landscape in a wide range of situations the Leica S is a really good choice (Mainly because of the Lenses and also the AF and handling). For the ultimate in Image Quality the PhaseOne backs are still the choice though. Some people do prefer a weather sealed, integrated system and so far the Leica S is the best of that type. Me I wanted/needed the versatility of a digital back which I can use on a SLR body but also on a tech camera whenever I want.
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epines

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 06:24:13 pm »

Personally I would never even consider the Leica S, simply for the 2:3 aspect ratio which I really dislike.

I agree completely, especially 2:3 verticals. It's a deal-breaker. Man, I wish they would add another 4mm to the short side of the sensor, making it 45 x 34. Obviously the lenses have the image circle. Of course it would involve some body changes, but it would make it a lot more appealing. As it is, I'd be cropping it down to a 4:3 ratio, effectively making the useful part of the sensor 40 x 30, only a few mm bigger than 35mm in either dimension. Not worth it.

rsmphoto

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 06:33:00 pm »

What are you using for perspective control - post processing?

For some years I've used the HTS with Hasselblads and Phocus.  Just fine. I found the HTS also worked with the Leica (even had auto focus working with the HTS, 28 & 35 and Leica!) along with post in LR5, and final work in CS6 - No Phocus and DAC of course.  But my evaluation was that the HTS, in conjunction with H lenses (even with the Phocus DAC corrections), has never delivered as good a file as The Leica  and the S lenses on their own with LR5 and pc post.  But that's just me. Everyone has their own position on this.  I work the way that's comfortable for me, that delivers what I consider superb images. AND I like to work efficiently, so although I come from decades of view camera experience (Linhof, Sinar, Arca), technical cameras were never a direction I wanted "revert" to.  You could say I've found my work flow "sweet spot" with the Leica S.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 06:36:48 pm by rsmphoto »
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alan_b

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 07:51:23 pm »

Interesting, thanks.  I agree that all things considered, post-correction is sometimes the best choice.
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bcooter

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 09:15:44 pm »

I just bought an S2 as my main still camera, mostly to use with my contax lenses.

I thought about the 2:3, went through a body or recent images for the last few years and 67% were shot horizontal, so though I like a 43 format, the facts are the facts, we're now working in a horizontal world, at least I am.

It made me think why even go from 35mm if I was going to shoot 2:3 bud I did it for the look of the file, no other reason.   Detail is fine, I'm not a pixel staring, graph making guy, I just look at the image.

But remember if your cropping a 2:3 Leica down to 4:3, you doing the same with a dslr so there is a difference in frame size, but once again, I bought the camera for the look of the file, not microscoptic study.

Now I will follow this answer with a lot of words so if you don't won't to read any further then  . . . to cut to the chase, the S2 with my Contax lenses, really is the finest still camera I've used.   It has beautiful build quality, very analog in it's methods (which is good and bad) and shoots a beautiful file.

So far, and I've only had it a few days, the focus is as good if not better than the Contax, the lenses to body are completely sharp and the screen is large and detailed enough to manually focus.

It also shoots the some of the prettiest skin tones out of camera I've seen.

I've tested it with my 35mm, 45mm, 55mm 80mm, 120mm, 140mm and 210mm contax zeiss, all fine, sharp and pretty.  I've also used the pentax 67x lenses and the beautiful Hasselblad manual focus 110 F2.  That lens is beautiful and the S2 is the only ovf camera I can routinely hit focus with shooting on manual focus.

The cameras is  substantial but physically not as large as my Canon 1dx, it does feel different.

The only concern I had was the 2:3 format as I like 4:3 for stills, but today we shoot so much horizontal, that's not an issue.

So far in early testing 640 iso is easy, 800 is good I think It can go higher once I work it in post processing.

The Contax lenses are fast and obviously so are the Leica lenses and I'll probably add some Leica lenses to my Contax Zeiss lenses, but so far I'm covered across the range.

The lcd is pretty, not 2 million pixel detailed, but very good very pretty, easy to check focus.

The camera is great to hold and shoot.  It's just feels like pure quality and I hope will last, as it seems very robust.

So far I'm a fan, I love that it extended the life of my contax lenses which I think are the best medium format lenses available, to this day.  I'm always amazed at how sharp and modern they are after all these years.

The S2 will also bring my contax cameras back into play which are still amazing cameras.

If the camera has any liability it's the fact that it's under advertised and I think the worry about how expensive anything with the word leica is.

It's really a good deal in medium format terms and Leica glass is not that more expensive than most.

In testing it shoots smooth with the same results as the contax in regards to vibration in mirror and shutter, which is a heck of a feat considering how smooth the Contax is, so unless something drastically changes I think the S2 is a heck of a deal.

I haven't tethered it yet, I hear it's a little slow in tethering, but that's not the main goal and instant tethering isn't high on my list for a lot of reasons I don't want to go into here.

I also bought it at this time because I like the CCD look, find it special and I would guess Leica will go to cmos, so I thought i'd buy when the buying time is right.

Actually the only cmos cameras whose file I like is the Olympus omds and the RED cameras.   Everything else is just kind of ok, but doesn't look special out of camera, or in heavy post.

I'll probably add another body as I always have two of everything.

_____________________________________

One note, I'd like to see Phase open C-1 to the Leica.  Not because I dislike lightroom, I actually like it a lot, but since I will use the Leica in parallel to my contax/phase backs It would be easier to use the same suite for both cameras, but I guess I'll just set presets for my phase backs in lightroom and only use lightroom db for tethering on the contax and set a hold folder from C-1 to lightroom so I can keep everything in the same suite.

I think this is somewhat Ironic that Leica really does have the most open platform, as it accepts with smart lens adapters; Hasselblad H and V, Contax and Mamiya lenses.

It's kind of funny that phase made a stink about Hasselblad locking out their system, but Leica opens it's body up to everyone's lenses with full functionality while phase locked out hasselblad and Leica with C-1.

That's a business strategy that makes no sense given they open their software up to  their largest competitors Nikon and Canon (especially the d800) and that's their call, though I doubt seriously if I upgrade c-1 after this as there is no reason for the cameras I now use.

_____________________________________

I bought the S2 it from Steve Hendrix at Capture integration so in the U.S.  I have zero worries about repairs as Steve stands behind everything, but I know in visiting the Leica store in London, they will bend over backwards to find ways to accommodate you.

Leica wants very much for this camera to succeed.

If I have any issue with Leica it's the same I have with most companies in that tethering is not high on their list with smaller cameras like the M series.   Same with Olympus and Fuji.

(this is a shame because the Leica M ccd cameras work beautifully with studio flash like profoto.  The skintones are just killer good and so far the S2 is a very close match.

If the M series would tether, I could go totally Leica for all my still cameras.

I do know that as far as today this is the end of the line for me on Canon and Nikon.  I've never liked their cmos look, though learned to work around it, so today I don't have to.

With the Leicas, Olympus, Contax for stills Panasonic and RED for motion, I have no reason to continue with full frame 35mm.  

The Contax and S2 will use my Zeiss lenses, the Olympus, Panasonic and RED can use my Leica M lenses and that's a huge savings in weight and usability.

I will keep my PL's for one of my RED's and the micro 43 lenses for the olympus and panasonic for autofocus, (though they're so small they take up no space when traveling.

Though I'm early in the process, I'm guessing the S2 will probably be my main still camera, because it will cover so much territory.

The only downside to the S2 is as I expand my lens range I guess I'll get lured into the Leica buy a lens system, but there are worst things.




IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 09:28:33 pm by bcooter »
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 09:31:32 pm »

You forgot electrical engineers ;)

No but seriously its a great camera, especially if you wan't medium format without all the fiddly bits. Of course, thats why most people want medium format, the fiddly bits. But it has superior lenses, great adapters (especially for the Hasselblad H-lenses). If you don't need full-frame then its really a great choice. If you don't need to take the back off of your camera its even better. Currently I think its sensor tech is its weakest point since I believe its still the original sensor (though that was still very good, and if its a new sensor someone is more then welcome to correct me). You can check out some of my early thoughts on that camera here: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2011/12/07/leica-store-mayfair-and-leica-s2-in-depth-review-2/ and also head over to the flickr for ISO range sample and some other images I think.

Honestly, It was between the Leica S2 and the PhaseOne IQ180 when I upgraded from my Hasselblad H3Dii system and the only reason PhaseOne won was because it offered substantially more for the money. For the same money as it would've taken to sell my Hasselblad and build a reasonable Leica S kit, I got a PhaseOne IQ180 + 645DF and 80mm f/2.8 lens and not to mention use of all the Mamiya lenses that I already had from shooting film on the 645AFD and not to mentioned a full-frame 80mp open system medium format digital back versus a <40mp crop sensor in a DSLR body. So needless to say IQ180 wound up winning though it was a difficult decision at the time.

I think as Hasselbald sinks more users will be using the Leica S adapter to retain use of their excellent lenses and be able to enter the S system at a highly affordable price point.
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2014, 09:49:00 pm »

What's the difference between the first and second version of the S? There were some AF issues, I remember, but for all I know they were solved by an update?

Edmund
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 09:50:18 pm »

I believe version I added like GPS support, maybe some other small features, no real aesthetic changes, and prob some new firmware. I don't think there was anything ground breaking if memory serves.
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telyt

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2014, 10:02:02 pm »

Why do you think The New Leica S is a camera less mentioned

More often than not people post on a photography forum when they have a problem.
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synn

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2014, 10:16:52 pm »

I agree completely, especially 2:3 verticals. It's a deal-breaker. Man, I wish they would add another 4mm to the short side of the sensor, making it 45 x 34. Obviously the lenses have the image circle. Of course it would involve some body changes, but it would make it a lot more appealing. As it is, I'd be cropping it down to a 4:3 ratio, effectively making the useful part of the sensor 40 x 30, only a few mm bigger than 35mm in either dimension. Not worth it.

When I first started thinking about upgrading to MF, The Leica was of course, something I looked at. But it has several deal breakers for me.

As mentioned above, I DESPISE 3:2. I don't like looking through a 3:2 viewfinder. Every time I shot with my Bronica ETRSi, I enjoyed it a lot more than my DSLRs because I like looking at the world in 4:3. Every single one of my DSLR shots get cropped down, so in a way, I was paying for pixels I didn't need.

Second is the form factor. I may be the weird one here, but I actually prefer the traditional MF form factor over the 35mm DSLR form factor. I like how the back is a "Counterweight" to the lens. I like the modular approach. Basically, the S2 has none of the things I like about medium format.

Regarding the files, I'm sure BC here would disagree (And he shoots a bazillion times better images than me so he might very well be right), I don't quite see the "MF magic" in the S2 files. Sure it's better than 35mm files, but not "Knock my socks off" better.

I also love (and prefer) working with Capture One Pro. Obviously not an option with the S2.

Lastly, at least in this market, the LS lenses are overpriced even by MF standards.

These are the things that made the S2 a non-option for me. But that's a personal opinion and I am sure it fits perfectly into the workflow of some others.
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Ken R

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2014, 10:27:41 pm »

What's the difference between the first and second version of the S? There were some AF issues, I remember, but for all I know they were solved by an update?

Edmund

The S has a better AF sensor/system (more accurate and sensitive), larger and better quality rear LCD screen, GPS, small joystick in the rear, expanded iso range to 100-1600 (don't know if the tweaked the electronics or just enabled it through firmware) and new menu look + a few more features in the menu.

I think that is about it.
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eronald

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Re: The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2014, 10:43:21 pm »

And I like square. Am I the only one who loved the Hassy SQUARE?

J hasn't shown us any of those wonderful S files yet, although he writes very poetically about them :)

Edmund

When I first started thinking about upgrading to MF, The Leica was of course, something I looked at. But it has several deal breakers for me.

As mentioned above, I DESPISE 3:2. I don't like looking through a 3:2 viewfinder. Every time I shot with my Bronica ETRSi, I enjoyed it a lot more than my DSLRs because I like looking at the world in 4:3. Every single one of my DSLR shots get cropped down, so in a way, I was paying for pixels I didn't need.

Second is the form factor. I may be the weird one here, but I actually prefer the traditional MF form factor over the 35mm DSLR form factor. I like how the back is a "Counterweight" to the lens. I like the modular approach. Basically, the S2 has none of the things I like about medium format.

Regarding the files, I'm sure BC here would disagree (And he shoots a bazillion times better images than me so he might very well be right), I don't quite see the "MF magic" in the S2 files. Sure it's better than 35mm files, but not "Knock my socks off" better.

I also love (and prefer) working with Capture One Pro. Obviously not an option with the S2.

Lastly, at least in this market, the LS lenses are overpriced even by MF standards.

These are the things that made the S2 a non-option for me. But that's a personal opinion and I am sure it fits perfectly into the workflow of some others.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 11:09:31 pm by eronald »
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