I guess we are going to see more MF CMOS introductions…

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Phase One got a head start with the IQ 250. The small size of the sensor and the high price was a bit of a chock, I guess.

One reason for Phase One being first to market has probably been that they had a good live view solution in the existing backs, and 3.5 years of cooperation with Sony?

I guess that we see some competition coming, like Pentax and Leica. And Hasselblad, of course. I presume that Hasselblad development resources are not entirely spent on Stellar, Lunar and Solar? It may even be that Sony makes it's own back. Probable ? No. Feasible? Yes.

I guess that 2014 will be an interesting year for MF. With some companies going ahead and perhaps some phasing out.

Best regards
Erik

[gerald.d]

Based on a conversation I had with some Ricoh guys at CES, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Pentax announce the 645D successor at CP+ in a little under 3 weeks time.

[eronald]

I look forward to a Pentax announcement a $10K.
Maybe Pentax can take the working horse position that used to belong to Hassy.

Edmund

[gerald.d]

I look forward to a Pentax announcement a $10K.
Maybe Pentax can take the working horse position that used to belong to Hassy.

Edmund

Will be interesting to see what they do. The 645D isn't for me (I'm wedded to my ALPA system), but it is astonishing value at just $7K for the body (the Phase DF+ - body only - is listed at $6K...).

I think we can expect to see a lot of the sort of innovation introduced with the K3 in the new 645D (but probably not video of course).

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Nice to hear about the Pentax. What I feel, but I may be wrong, is that Pentax needs to start making lenses for the 645DII or whatever they will call it.

Another small observation is that the new Sony sensor is pretty small, so it fits well into cameras designed around "cropped" sensor like the Pentax 645D and the Leica S.

In my humble opinion, making a smaller pitch sensor like 4.7 micron or even 3.9 micron would have made some more sense. Small pixels are obviously less sharp at actual pixels than larger ones, perhaps reducing the "bragging factor" but they actually resolve more detail. I have little doubt that an 89 MP image from a 3.9 micron 44x33 sensor downscaled to 50 MP will be much better than a 50 MP picture from a 44x33 sensor. I would guess that fine detail, like hair would be much smoother.

Best regards
Erik

Will be interesting to see what they do. The 645D isn't for me (I'm wedded to my ALPA system), but it is astonishing value at just $7K for the body (the Phase DF+ - body only - is listed at $6K...).

I think we can expect to see a lot of the sort of innovation introduced with the K3 in the new 645D (but probably not video of course).

[torger]

Pentax already provides both great value and performance, a 645D is not much more expensive than a Canon 1DX. I wonder how well they sell, and which photographers that buy. If I was not into tech cameras it might be a real alternative for me. ~44x33 DSLRs are just too similar to 24x36 DSLRs to be interesting for me though. It's a bit painful that making the back detachable so I can use it adds $20K or so to the price.

Imagine if Pentax or even Sony came up with the idea to make a digital back, sub $10K backs with latest technology, that would be something. However they would not do such a thing without their own system to attach it to so it's nothing but a vain dream. We're stuck with the expensive low volume business models of Phase, Hassy and Sinar :-/

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I wouldn't rule out Sony making a back. They have sensor, electronics, ASIC, Display and even manufacturing capability.

Best regards
Erik

Pentax already provides both great value and performance, a 645D is not much more expensive than a Canon 1DX. I wonder how well they sell, and which photographers that buy. If I was not into tech cameras it might be a real alternative for me. ~44x33 DSLRs are just too similar to 24x36 DSLRs to be interesting for me though. It's a bit painful that making the back detachable so I can use it adds $20K or so to the price.

Imagine if Pentax or even Sony came up with the idea to make a digital back, sub $10K backs with latest technology, that would be something. However they would not do such a thing without their own system to attach it to so it's nothing but a vain dream. We're stuck with the expensive low volume business models of Phase, Hassy and Sinar :-/

[gerald.d]

Hi,

I wouldn't rule out Sony making a back. They have sensor, electronics, ASIC, Display and even manufacturing capability.

Best regards
Erik

But to put on what?

[torger]

If Sony is making anything with their new sensor size I think the most likely is a luxurious RX1, like "RXm" or something, ie a fixed lens 44x33mm compact with excellent Zeiss optics aimed at amateurs as a travel / walk around camera, price maybe $6-8K. I think such a product could work. Sizing up the RX1 is probably not too complicated, ie for quite low development effort they can make a camera which don't need to sell in very huge numbers to go around. Making it a system with interchangeable lenses is a whole different thing. An RXm could be a one-off camera (if it sells badly, don't make another one), while a system needs long term planning and investment.

A digital back you can attach to anything (Sinar style) does not make sense coming from Sony. That's something a small player with a real passion for medium format photograhpy could do. Sinar is the closest in mindset, but they're into the very narrow tethered-only studio view cam territory. Getting digital back supporting electronics (screen, live view etc) up to a level that Phase One has and any large DSLR manufacturer like Sony/Canon/Nikon can do at a whim is not easy for a small player.

Sinar had backs for field use before (75LV etc), but their back displays were the worst on the market and I guess they chose to just drop that segment rather than trying to get up to speed, just too much development effort.

Hasselblad has a similar problem now, their digital back platform is not strong enough to provide a live view of the quality Phase One can do, ie 20-30FPS easy to move around etc so it can actually be used for focusing and framing in almost any light condition. That's why their 50c will not have live view on the back. Remains to be seen how long time it will take for them to modernize their platform so they can provide a digital back user interface that a CMOS sensor deserves.

[Theodoros]

  What is more important than a Cmos sensor IMO, is the entrance of a big Japanese maker in MF sensor making… If I remember well, last time that other than Kodak or Dalsa sensor was used, it was Fuji with a huge sensor designed for the GX680…
   
   I believe that big Japanese makers would never enter such a market if they didn't see future into it… Also, given that Hasselblad and Fuji are "partners" with respect to the H system, it's a surprise to me that H5D-50c will be using the same sensor of Sony as with IQ250+.  I think that Fuji keeps an open eye to the MF market and it shouldn't be long until we see something from them.
   
   Never the less, the entrance of a new comer in MF sensor maker, can only mean that MF market is judged to expand while many where in fear that it could collapse… I can't help to think how Leica and  Sinar will "bridge" the two lines as I posted a while ago: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=85784.0 I expect a new (interchangeable back) camera to be introduced soon from them and a new series of self contained backs… If customer choices widen and competition increases, it can only be good for the future of MF...

[gerald.d]

If Sony is making anything with their new sensor size I think the most likely is a luxurious RX1, like "RXm" or something, ie a fixed lens 44x33mm compact with excellent Zeiss optics aimed at amateurs as a travel / walk around camera, price maybe $6-8K. I think such a product could work. Sizing up the RX1 is probably not too complicated, ie for quite low development effort they can make a camera which don't need to sell in very huge numbers to go around. Making it a system with interchangeable lenses is a whole different thing. An RXm could be a one-off camera (if it sells badly, don't make another one), while a system needs long term planning and investment.

Genius.

[Sareesh Sudhakaran]

But to put on what?

A 70mm digital cinema camera, perhaps?

[Theodoros]

A 70mm digital cinema camera, perhaps?

yeah! …a cinema camera that would cost 200k, one would have to throw all his lenses away, have only a batch of maybe 10 dedicated lenses, develop "new" style of direction for (almost) NO DOF when one "moves" inside the frame, eliminate camera operators to maybe 4 people worldwide and use 50mp to take …8 (!) eight out of it, to use in 4k raw video… S35 (and APS-C for starters) is more than enough for video… sensor size increase is the last thing that video will ever need.

[ndevlin]

Two thoughts:

1. A 1.3x crop MF chips is not really worth it over an otherwise identical FF 35mm chip in any measurable way. The decreased usability and increase cost make this a tenuous value proposition for most. I know this bc I sold my beloved 645D system for the D800e (and a lot of change) after testing it.

2. There is ZERO actual demand for chips bigger than the 60/80MP Dalsa chips.

3. Getting to the full 60/80MP chip real estate, in *true* 16BIT does become worthwhile in many professional-level applications.

 

- N.

[synn]

Two thoughts:

1. A 1.3x crop MF chips is not really worth it over an otherwise identical FF 35mm chip in any measurable way. The decreased usability and increase cost make this a tenuous value proposition for most. I know this bc I sold my beloved 645D system for the D800e (and a lot of change) after testing it.

- N.

sorry Nick. No. Just no.

not for my style of shooting. I just finished a studio session and shot some frames with the D800 just for fun alongside the credo 40. There is no comparison. At least, not in portraiture.

[torger]

2. There is ZERO actual demand for chips bigger than the 60/80MP Dalsa chips.

I think a 56x56mm sensor for Hy6, tech (and V) could work commercially, maybe with 7-8um pixels (49-64 megapixels). Problem is that Hassy and Phase don't have any reason to make such a back as their cameras don't work with that format.

[craigrudlin]

It would seem to me that the largest hindrance to Sony, Nikon, Canon, or similar "mass market" company releasing a 50MP camera is the lack of lenses capable of this resolution.  Even the D800E outpaces most Nikon lenses.  (To wit, the value and need of the Zeiss Otus.)  So, for one of these companies to release a 50MP camera means either designing the camera from the start to use MF lenses or lenses like the Otus,  or bringing out another line of lenses.  The latter is very expensive and time consuming.  (Indeed, this is a major issue for Sony even now with the A7R -- the lack of "native" lenses with sufficient resolving power. And this doesn't even  address the issue of "draw".)

[JV]

I think a 56x56mm sensor for Hy6, tech (and V) could work commercially, maybe with 7-8um pixels (49-64 megapixels). Problem is that Hassy and Phase don't have any reason to make such a back as their cameras don't work with that format.

If the Hy6 wants to survive as a digital platform DHW IMO needs to search a partner other than Leaf.  For the reasons that you mention Phase One is unlikely to invest a lot in such a back.  They already dropped the unique rotating sensor solution for AFi/V mounts.  It is just not important to them.  They are currently also the only option for the Hy6 so if you want a current back you have no other option than Phase One.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Sorry, I am not familiar with cinema.

Can you explain the benefits of 70mm, for those of us who are shootings stills?

Best regards
Erik

A 70mm digital cinema camera, perhaps?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Not at all! Ideally a sensor should outresolve the lens. If the lens outresolves the sensor you will get artifacts like moiré, false colours and jagged lines. An actual pixels image will be awful, but downscale that image and it will be beautiful.

Sony could make a back for Hasselblad V series of cameras, just a very simple and basic one. Such a back would sell to a lot of Hasselblad owners, if the sensor was big enough and the price was low enough.

Best regards
Erik

It would seem to me that the largest hindrance to Sony, Nikon, Canon, or similar "mass market" company releasing a 50MP camera is the lack of lenses capable of this resolution.  Even the D800E outpaces most Nikon lenses.  (To wit, the value and need of the Zeiss Otus.)  So, for one of these companies to release a 50MP camera means either designing the camera from the start to use MF lenses or lenses like the Otus,  or bringing out another line of lenses.  The latter is very expensive and time consuming.  (Indeed, this is a major issue for Sony even now with the A7R -- the lack of "native" lenses with sufficient resolving power. And this doesn't even  address the issue of "draw".)