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Author Topic: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.  (Read 60612 times)

jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #240 on: January 29, 2014, 06:35:38 pm »


Hi J -

My guess is a typo, the $43,990 is the pricing for an IQ260 with DF+/80LS Lens kit, but instead of 1 Year Classic Warranty, this would be 5 Year Value Add Warranty for the same configuration. Not speaking for them, just my best guess.


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Thanks,

J. Duncan
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pedro39photo

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #241 on: January 30, 2014, 04:46:15 am »

Its sad but its true, 15 years ago anyone in photography, amateur or professional or just a police...could identify that a hassy 500cm or a mamiya 645 was in fact a photo camera.
Today the DMF its a niche so small that in the field working with my H3D II sometimes even photographers ask me what its that? Huh? this say very very much about the industry.

And its sad for me, because i dont really understand why he have to buy a used DMF camera for 5000$ to have a entry in this beautiful photographic medium tool with huge selling points like Viewfinder and DOF and not 50MP wars...
I am thing if in the present the photography schools still show the advantages of the Medium Format ??? or the 2 major brands invest marking in this segment?

my best regards
Pedro
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #242 on: January 30, 2014, 06:23:53 am »


Still, I'm astonished that no japanese manufacturer is doing multishot in a consumer camera, as it is a fairly obvious application of in-body vibration reduction technology. One could even imagine it being done handheld with an electronic shutter on a CMOS sensor.

Edmund


MS has nothing to do with "vibration reduction" (applied on sensor) Edmund, it's a completely different principle. MS handheld? ….how can one align different pixels recording exactly the same position with a non constant subject with respect to a non constant sensor?
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LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #243 on: January 30, 2014, 07:27:09 am »

In-body vibration reduction is just a technology for moving the sensor with microscopic precision.  Moving the sensor with microscopic precision is needed for multishot.  Hence, maybe the existing in-body VR technology could be adapted (when the camera is otherwise /fixed/) to perform multishot sensor moves. 

hjulenissen

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #244 on: January 30, 2014, 09:12:34 am »

In-body vibration reduction is just a technology for moving the sensor with microscopic precision.  Moving the sensor with microscopic precision is needed for multishot.  Hence, maybe the existing in-body VR technology could be adapted (when the camera is otherwise /fixed/) to perform multishot sensor moves. 
One might imagine a flexible/fast/accurate sensor movement system to be used for "camera stabilization", OLPF-emulation (Pentax k-3 was it?) and multi-sampling (Hasselblad style).

Can such a system be deviced economically? Or does it make more sense to spend component cost e.g. bumping the sensor resolution?

-h
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #245 on: January 30, 2014, 09:26:40 am »

One might imagine a flexible/fast/accurate sensor movement system to be used for "camera stabilization", OLPF-emulation (Pentax k-3 was it?) and multi-sampling (Hasselblad style).

Can such a system be deviced economically? Or does it make more sense to spend component cost e.g. bumping the sensor resolution?

-h

Yes - this is exactly what the K3 does.
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #246 on: January 30, 2014, 11:30:32 am »

In-body vibration reduction is just a technology for moving the sensor with microscopic precision.  Moving the sensor with microscopic precision is needed for multishot.  Hence, maybe the existing in-body VR technology could be adapted (when the camera is otherwise /fixed/) to perform multishot sensor moves. 
Is what you are saying that by "moving the sensor" (like with vibration reduction) you will also be able to align different pixels (polluted with different colour via Bayer pattern) in a signal capture too, as to create a "true colour" capture?
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #247 on: January 30, 2014, 11:33:00 am »

Yes - this is exactly what the K3 does.
??? ?
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jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #248 on: January 30, 2014, 12:21:12 pm »

In-body vibration reduction is just a technology for moving the sensor with microscopic precision.  Moving the sensor with microscopic precision is needed for multishot.  Hence, maybe the existing in-body VR technology could be adapted (when the camera is otherwise /fixed/) to perform multishot sensor moves. 

It seems related, but it's not like the same capabilities. Moving the sensor to shake dust is "motora gruesa" in comparison with multi shoot.
I will say that the same runs for VR. Alining the pixels in for a multi shot sensor seems to be in a different order of magnitude.
You need to align the pixels that are at the micron scale.

Now it may be posible to adapt it: Ingenuity has won many battles.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #249 on: January 30, 2014, 12:22:47 pm »

??? ?

Not entirely sure as to the meaning of the smiley, but the K3 allows you to vibrate the sensor to mimic an OLPF.
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #250 on: January 30, 2014, 12:32:37 pm »

It seems related, but it's not like the same capabilities. Moving the sensor to shake dust is "motora gruesa" in comparison with multi shoot.
I will say that the same runs for VR. Alining the pixels in for a multi shot sensor seems to be in a different order of magnitude.
You need to align the pixels that are at the micron scale.

Now it may be posible to adapt it: Ingenuity has won many battles.

Best regards,
J. Duncan


Rather …not possible  ::)
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #251 on: January 30, 2014, 12:35:37 pm »

Not entirely sure as to the meaning of the smiley, but the K3 allows you to vibrate the sensor to mimic an OLPF.
…and "multisampling"? (wrong term for pixel alignment in MS)  :-[
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #252 on: January 30, 2014, 01:16:08 pm »

…and "multisampling"? (wrong term for pixel alignment in MS)  :-[
What about it? Not of relevance to the question asked that referred to the K3, nor the answer given to that question.

Are being deliberately obtuse?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #253 on: January 30, 2014, 01:24:04 pm »

Hi,

This summer Hasselblad had very low prices on some 4 series cameras, I think something like 21k$US for a complete kit with a lens. That started me thinking MFD (for the N-th time), but I finally ended up with a V-series Hasselblad and a P45+ and five V-series lenses.

Best regards
Erik



Yes, that's true, there can be some regional differences depending on distribution arrangements.


Steve Hendrix
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #254 on: January 30, 2014, 01:41:08 pm »

After waiting years for live view on a medium format digital back which would make my life so much easier when composing shots with the technical camera, than along comes a medium format digital back that can do just that……...but just not really with a technical camera..at least not if you want to use shift….which is the main reason one buys a technical camera….and even if you don't use shift, your Rodenstock wide angle lenses, which cost several thousand are now no longer wide angle lenses because of a 1.3 crop factor…and your Schneider wide angle lenses are ornaments.

At one time the substantial difference in price between medium format digital backs and dslrs equated to a substantial difference in quality. Now there is a much smaller difference in quality but the difference in price remains the same. Part of the substantial difference in quality previously was due to the vastly superior Schneider and Rodenstock lenses used on technical cameras. Now the IQ250 back is not suited imo to the majority of technical camera users (at least not the ones that utilize one of the main benefits of a technical camera. IE shift and rise/fall)) Newer dslr lenses have been released over the last few years in tandem with the newer dslr's with their substantial sensor improvementnts. This has lessened the gap in ultimate image quality. After all just like film, the sensor is only half the story.

So you have an IQ250 50 megapixel sensor with a crop factor of 1.3. The same sensor probably as what will appear in other medium format cameras in the upcoming future. And you will have a new Canon Camera most likely coming out in the 2nd quarter of 2014 with a minimum 40 megapixel sensor along with God knows what else, further reducing the gap in image quality….Will the price difference remain the same. The Canon will be probably be nearer the $8,000 mark than the $3000 mark but it will have hd video, vastly improved screen, no need for a dark frame (or at least the option to turn it off) and a whole plethora of features and functionality not found on medium format digital. That's still a lot less than ¢30000. You have the newer Canon lenses like the 17mm and 24mm TS lenses which are crackers. You will have no alternative on the IQ250 because of the crop factor. You can use the IQ260 and IQ280 but than you don't have the live view. (probably THE most important feature an architectural or landscape photographer would need on a technical camera) Of course much of what I write in this paragraph has to happen yet so you can take it with a pinch of salt.  :P

The difference in quality between camera platforms will change substantially in 2014 in one shape or form. Hats off to Phase One, Sony and Hasselblad for working hard to push the envelope but unfortunately due to budgetary constraints of medium format manufacturers the pace of progress is much slower than on dslrs. This has allowed the goal posts to move substantially. It will definitely be an interesting year.



 

bcooter

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #255 on: January 30, 2014, 02:18:22 pm »

After waiting years for live view on a medium format digital back which would make my life so much easier when composing shots with the technical camera, than along comes a medium format digital back that can do just that……...but just not really

The moment I read the specs, I could feel the tech camera guys pain.   That's a drag.

Though I think the camera companies that are really pushing it are the smaller ones like Olympus and Fuji.

It took me a long time to get use to an evf for stills but once use to it I find it the greatest attribute and something I find hard to do without.

When I bought the Leica S2, I put it to my eye, moved the shutter dial and nothing in the viewfinder changed.  I thought, hmmm what's not working, until it hit me that I was working old style with an ovf.

I like the S2 wouldn't have bought it if I didn't, but if olympus made a approx 645 sensor camera (think pentax 6x7 modern) with the electronics they have in the omd series, it would be hard to deny.

BTW:  I have a question I've never understood.  Live view on ccd still cameras is close to awful, but they're were and still are ccd eng video cameras that obviously have super live view.  What is the difference between those sensors (though small) vs. the ccd's used in medium format cameras?

IMO

BC
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #256 on: January 30, 2014, 02:26:33 pm »

Hi,

Just a few reflections.

I definitively agree on the crop factor issue. But it would be possible to use the IQ 250 on an Alpa FPS or Hartblei HCam with Canons 17 and 24 lenses both being very good.

Regarding the Rodenstock lenses, let's see how all test CI and DT makes come out.

With regard to the cost, Phase One obviously feels it is a reasonable or feasible price for the product.

Best regards
Erik


After waiting years for live view on a medium format digital back which would make my life so much easier when composing shots with the technical camera, than along comes a medium format digital back that can do just that……...but just not really with a technical camera..at least not if you want to use shift….which is the main reason one buys a technical camera….and even if you don't use shift, your Rodenstock wide angle lenses, which cost several thousand are now no longer wide angle lenses because of a 1.3 crop factor…and your Schneider wide angle lenses are ornaments.

At one time the substantial difference in price between medium format digital backs and dslrs equated to a substantial difference in quality. Now there is a much smaller difference in quality but the difference in price remains the same. Part of the substantial difference in quality previously was due to the vastly superior Schneider and Rodenstock lenses used on technical cameras. Now the IQ250 back is not suited imo to the majority of technical camera users (at least not the ones that utilize one of the main benefits of a technical camera. IE shift and rise/fall)) Newer dslr lenses have been released over the last few years in tandem with the newer dslr's with their substantial sensor improvementnts. This has lessened the gap in ultimate image quality. After all just like film, the sensor is only half the story.

So you have an IQ250 50 megapixel sensor with a crop factor of 1.3. The same sensor probably as what will appear in other medium format cameras in the upcoming future. And you will have a new Canon Camera most likely coming out in the 2nd quarter of 2014 with a minimum 40 megapixel sensor along with God knows what else, further reducing the gap in image quality….Will the price difference remain the same. The Canon will be probably be nearer the $8,000 mark than the $3000 mark but it will have hd video, vastly improved screen, no need for a dark frame (or at least the option to turn it off) and a whole plethora of features and functionality not found on medium format digital. That's still a lot less than ¢30000. You have the newer Canon lenses like the 17mm and 24mm TS lenses which are crackers. You will have no alternative on the IQ250 because of the crop factor. You can use the IQ260 and IQ280 but than you don't have the live view. (probably THE most important feature an architectural or landscape photographer would need on a technical camera) Of course much of what I write in this paragraph has to happen yet so you can take it with a pinch of salt.  :P

The difference in quality between camera platforms will change substantially in 2014 in one shape or form. Hats off to Phase One, Sony and Hasselblad for working hard to push the envelope but unfortunately due to budgetary constraints of medium format manufacturers the pace of progress is much slower than on dslrs. This has allowed the goal posts to move substantially. It will definitely be an interesting year.



 
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #257 on: January 30, 2014, 02:51:17 pm »

Hi,

Just a few reflections.

I definitively agree on the crop factor issue. But it would be possible to use the IQ 250 on an Alpa FPS or Hartblei HCam with Canons 17 and 24 lenses both being very good.

Regarding the Rodenstock lenses, let's see how all test CI and DT makes come out.

With regard to the cost, Phase One obviously feels it is a reasonable or feasible price for the product.

Best regards
Erik



What Phase One think and what I think (and my bank manager) are 2 different things ;D If Canon bring out the new high megapixel camera, what real advantage would you have using an IQ 250 on a Hartblei + Canon Tilt Shift lenses. I mean what real advantage that would equate to multiples in price difference.

I was never one to get involved in the whole dslr versus medium format argument. I LOVE my arca swiss RL3D and Hasselblad H3D 39 and for me the reason to use it was quality quality. That difference in quality will be vastly reduced this year. (In my case probably surpassed.) Medium format manufacturers have started very late into cmos territory. In the meantime dslr cameras have ploughed ahead in all aspects of their design. You have HD video, you have high quality live view, you have new high quality lens design, you have improved high iso, you have through the lens viewfinders with tilt shift lenses (as opposed to technical cameras) you have higher shutter rates, you have accurate autofocus and now you have sensors getting closer to medium format quality.

The argument going back to the film days with large and medium format versus 35mm was about quality, quality and more quality and also how it slows you down to think about the shot, but if the only substantial difference soon will be how much it slows you down than I suggest we all shoot on dslr and take a moment to contemplate what wen will do with the $25,000 we can save ;D ;D ;D

 

 

LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #258 on: January 30, 2014, 03:01:37 pm »

BTW:  I have a question I've never understood.  Live view on ccd still cameras is close to awful, but they're were and still are ccd eng video cameras that obviously have super live view.  What is the difference between those sensors (though small) vs. the ccd's used in medium format cameras?

A video stream involves 345k pixels per frame (SD) or about 2M pixels per frame (full HD).  A camera can do this 60 times per second without breaking a sweat.  And a little bit of noise doesn't ruin the show in ENG applications.  A still camera delivers 12-24-36-?? MP per frame.  That's another order of magnitude in speed.  I don't know of any APS-c or larger chips that can deliver an entire frame at video rates.  But getting fast readout has been a research priority recently for just these sorts of reasons, so expect newer chips to perform better.  Some smaller chips (GH, Nikon 1, etc) already do.

jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #259 on: January 30, 2014, 03:08:53 pm »

Hi,

Just a few reflections.

I definitively agree on the crop factor issue. But it would be possible to use the IQ 250 on an Alpa FPS or Hartblei HCam with Canons 17 and 24 lenses both being very good.

Regarding the Rodenstock lenses, let's see how all test CI and DT makes come out.

With regard to the cost, Phase One obviously feels it is a reasonable or feasible price for the product.

Best regards
Erik



Sometimes it helps to take a look at a different but related market space.

IBM let go the possibility of making a lot of money on the server space with Power. After the Power5+ they got a definitive advantage against basically everybody. What they do was price the  systems out of most of the potential clients.
It seems non sense for the people that is not on the CS /IT environment, but it's classic modern IBM.

I believe that this strategy (price the higher price possible)  is useful when you lose confidence in your product. You have the  convinced that there is no way out. You are sure that no pricing or improvement with increase volume. If that is the case, the proper pricing is the higher one that will not lead to  a faster dead.  In few words :You get as much as you can and then you sale what is left.

IBM just accepted this quarter that the server lines will never get back to the profit levels.
They were convinced of this (my intuition) from long time ago. It became a self fulfill prophecy.

They did have an opportunity to grow when the workloads moved to processor agnostic web architectures. They did not launch a killer strategy even when Sun was with no competitive processor and HP was fighting with underperforming itaniums. The space has change, the opportunity gone. Now the marker have competitive processors and the cloud has handle the kingdom to x86.

PhaseOne is fighting for medium format. Hasselblad was confuse under the previews CEO. They have to solve the price issues and even more important understand that they can't be in the cutting edge of the technology for longer periods of time*. They need to focus in their core advantages, including low volume.  That means yields are not as pressing, and you can give better service.

Sensor size is one of the key advantages; The crop factor high end camera is a mistake (but maybe was the only option). I hope a bigger sensor is coming  (48mm x36mm ). Now if Leica and Pentax (that happens to be a Japanese company) are leading we are for a not so funny ride.

Best regards,

J. Duncan

* An example will be Intel, even with the (almost) monopoly on the server space the Xeons can't be stage of the art. They are previews generation systems improved for server loads (an example is multiprocessing and number of PCIe lanes).  The sensor on the IQ250 will be state of the art but I will expect for it (or the next one) to have a longer cycle  that mainstream sensors.
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