PhaseOne IQ250

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't think this is the case any longer, modern CMOS seems to have very large active area, due to thin area of transistors. The attached photo comes from a well published article from Chipworks, I think it shows pretty well how good fill factors modern CMOS sensor achieve.

http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-1-nikon-vs-sony/

Best regards
Erik

If I understand CMOS tech properly it would work extremely bad without them, one would get like ISO 10 or something with huge vignetting so it's not really an option.

[Paul2660]

I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+.  This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected.  Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera.  And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited.  Most of the wides were in the Schneider line.  Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor.  

What is more glaring to me is that it's a 2:3 ratio sensor due to the  1.3 crop.  So all wides will suffer by this factor.  If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative.  Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about.  Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field.  

No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.

Paul

[Theodoros]

I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+.  This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected.  Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera.  And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited.  Most of the wides were in the Schneider line.  Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor. 

What is more glaring to me is that it's a 3:2 ratio sensor with a 1.3 crop.  So all wides will suffer by this factor.  If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative.  Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about.  Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field. 

No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.

Paul

What is a 3:2 sensor? …the 50mp 33x44 new Sony sensor? …if this is what you are saying it's wrong. The new Sony sensor is designed specifically for use with MF cameras, if one crops a 24x36mm image area out of it, the result will come up to exactly 30mp which is totally irrelevant to the existing sensors that Sony is using for DSLRs (24 & 36mp).

[Paul2660]

Typo on my part, I will correct it, the ratio of the 1:3 sensor is 2:3 just like 35mm digital sensors.  Large 60MP and 80MP are 3:4 ratio.  Just take a look at the Phase One spec sheet on their specifications page.

Paul

[ErikKaffehr]

I agree on both points. I actually don't mind 3:2 ratio, it is OK or not according to ones needs.

But crop factor is an issue, unless you decide to design a system around it, like Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax do and don't f__k yourself by offering a larger sensor like HB is doing.

Best regards
Erik

I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+.  This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected.  Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera.  And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited.  Most of the wides were in the Schneider line.  Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor. 

What is more glaring to me is that it's a 3:2 ratio sensor with a 1.3 crop.  So all wides will suffer by this factor.  If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative.  Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about.  Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field. 

No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.

Paul

[BJL]

Look at dalsa web site, they say "Micro lenses with wide angular response" in the presentation of their 60 and 48 megapixel 6um sensors

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/area-scan/FTF9168C/

Micro lenses vs no micro lenses is a property of the past, when micro lenses had really poor angular response.

According to a Dalsa technical paper, it uses a new, different method of attatching micro-lenses that makes them lower and closer to the wells, and this mostly eliminates the problem of "micro-lens vignetting". This is supported by the spec sheets for Dalsa's recent micro-lensed sensors show an angular fall-off in sensitivity no worse that for Kodak sensors without micro-lenses, and far better than for Kodak sensors with micro-lenses.

But this new 51MP 44x33mm sensor is from Sony, not Dalsa, and it is not yet clear to me whether Sony has matched this improved micro-lens vignetting performance. (Maybe Doug will reveal all soon!)  I agree that the claim of good ISO 6400 indicates that the new Sony CMOS sensor has micro-lenses.  Note also that most or all previous 44x33mm sensors use micro-lenses, perhaps because the "sensor crop" imposed on 645 format lenses minimizes these vignetting problems.  (Unless you use big shifts!)

[synn]

Typo on my part, I will correct it, the ratio of the 1:3 sensor is 2:3 just like 35mm digital sensors.  Large 60MP and 80MP are 3:4 ratio.  Just take a look at the Phase One spec sheet on their specifications page.

Paul

it's a 4:3 ratio sensor. The 1.3x crop has nothing to do with aspect ratios.
the only 3:2 ratio sensors around right now are the aptus II 10 and the leica s2.

[Paul2660]

Synn, I have to differ, but you can't argue with facts, just look at the attached picture.  It appears as more of a 2:3 ratio than the larger two. 

Paul

[synn]

Synn, I have to differ, but you can't argue with facts, just look at the attached picture.  It appears as more of a 2:3 ratio than the larger two. 

Paul

44:33 :: 4:3

am I missing something,here?

[Paul2660]

Must be my eyes too early in the am for me. 

Paul

[torger]

The diagram tricks the eye to see the format wider than it is. Sensor size is just the size the mm says, 44x33mm, which is 4:3 format. Since the square format was dropped digital backs have only been in 4:3 format (afaik), but we have the Leica S2 as the odd one out at 3:2 (45x30mm).

[torger]

But this new 51MP 44x33mm sensor is from Sony, not Dalsa, and it is not yet clear to me whether Sony has matched this improved micro-lens vignetting performance.

I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.

Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have the impression that there is a significant market for technical cameras, like 15% of MFD sales and I also guess that quite a few MFD buyers migrate from MF DSLRs to technical cameras.

On the other hand, I also guess that it is reasonable that the technical camera market moves to lenses designed for digital, that is lenses with a low beam angle and high performance.

My impression is that Hasselblad may prioritise volume over price. I would expect lower price systems coming from Hasselblad compared to Phase. I also feel that Hasselblad is thinking out of the box, I am much impressed by the HTS for instance.

Best regards
Erik

I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.

Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.

[BernardLanguillier]

Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.

That would be unfortunate because, frankly speaking, using a back on a view camera is IMHO the only scenario where there is compelling value compared to high end DSLRs.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Steve Hendrix]

I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.

Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.

I don't agree with your statement. It may say a lot about how well (or not) Phase One might present limitations to their products - no argument from me there. And I suppose without more information you're left to those conclusions. However, it is obviously an important segment to them, and there certainly was internal debate over the performance of the IQ250 with regard to technical cameras. They are aware it is limited compared to the other IQ models.

Their marketing position for the IQ250 likely does not address technical cameras because their is not a good story there, however how bad the story is remains to be seen. It is not a product that is targeting technical camera users. That doesn't mean it can't be used with technical cameras (and Capture Integration will be doing our own testing this coming week). I believe they see this as a product that a high end portrait or wedding shooter might more easily employ than an IQ product. And to that end, IQ products remain in the lineup as excellent solutions for technical cameras. This is not the first product that Phase One has release that may not be optimized for technical camera use (P30/30+, etc).

And I wouldn't count out further development of this technology that may produce more compatibility with technical cameras in the future.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[synn]

Must be my eyes too early in the am for me. 

Paul

Happens to the best of us. I coffee can't function without in the morning. 

Cheers.

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.

Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.

I also don't agree with this. I think we have photographers have become spoiled by the large amount of features packed into some smaller sensored cameras. I know that I said almost the exact opposite in my article (writing to the affect of "we deserve as much functionality as possible for the price"). But I will also remind you that it was not that long ago that there were all sorts of specialized cameras out there for film photography including all sorts of formats 6x7 6x9 6x8 6x17 6x12 and all of these came in many forms, and thats not to mention the multitude of large format cameras, they all served specific functions and did different things, namely they were specialized. Frankly, I believe that this should be done much more with digital photography then it has been since most digital cameras try and do as much as humanly possible within the physical, financial and technological constraints placed on them.

I see no problem with PhaseOne producing CCD sensored products for use with technical cameras (and SLR bodies) and then also producing CMOS. Heck, PhaseOne produces the IQ260 (a Long Exposure back), the IQ280 a megapixel monster, the IQ260 Achromatic a black and white back, and also offers the option of full spectrum and IR backs. I don't see why its so contentious for them to release a CMOS back which aims to provide high ISO performance for photographers (like myself) who want to be able to versatile use our cameras in challenging lighting situations. They are each tools with different goals, and I don't believe PhaseOne has said that all new backs they produce will be CMOS, I don't believe that this is currently possible based on the technology available in the world.

However, that being said we haven't even gotten our hands on the camera yet so lets wait and see whats what before we make too many conclusions. But my point stands, there are different tools for different applications and PhaseOne offering a diverse range of backs which may have some limitations and are not all encompassing can only be a good thing since it means specialized products for specific applications.

[BernardLanguillier]

Brian,

No issues with specialized tools, but it is precisely when using movements on technical cameras that live view is most useful...

Cheers,
Bernard

[Brian Hirschfeld]

Brian,

No issues with specializes tools, but it is precisely when using movements on technical cameras that live view is most useful...

Cheers,
Bernard

Completely agree. I mention that in my article that it is disappointing because thats where 20-24 fps live view could be great. But lets see, it might not be 100% with all tech cam lenses, but it could be still be usable to a lesser extent, lets see!

[BernardLanguillier]

Completely agree. I mention that in my article that it is disappointing because thats where 20-24 fps live view could be great. But lets see, it might not be 100% with all tech cam lenses, but it could be still be usable to a lesser extent, lets see!

Yes, let's see.

Cheers,
Bernard