Topic: PhaseOne IQ250 (Read 6135 times)

Brian Hirschfeld · « **on:** January 24, 2014, 10:15:54 am »

Figured I'd get a nice search engine friendly thread running here about the new PhaseOne IQ250 CMOS medium format digital back. I'll bet getting my hands on one early next week and will report back in full on this camera and hopefully have some sample images as well as comparisons (certainly an ISO comparison) up soon.

Until then, here are some of my thoughts on the launch: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2014/01/24/just-announced-phaseone-iq250-the-rise-of-cmos/ would love to hear what other people think.

Best,
BH

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2014, 01:56:13 pm »

Hi Brian,

A nice write up! Looking forward to your report on the back.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Brian Hirschfeld on January 24, 2014, 10:15:54 am

Figured I'd get a nice search engine friendly thread running here about the new PhaseOne IQ250 CMOS medium format digital back. I'll bet getting my hands on one early next week and will report back in full on this camera and hopefully have some sample images as well as comparisons (certainly an ISO comparison) up soon.

Until then, here are some of my thoughts on the launch: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2014/01/24/just-announced-phaseone-iq250-the-rise-of-cmos/ would love to hear what other people think.

Best,
BH

Brian Hirschfeld · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2014, 02:19:17 pm »

Thanks, yes I will hoping to get my hands on it as early in the week as possible. Definitely going to shoot an ISO comparison with an 80mp or 60mp, prob 60mp since its the closest comparison, maybe both for the same money. Also going to see what happens when its put on a tech cam. Maybe do a little video so we can check out the live-view performance and if I can try out some long exposures. I think that pretty much covers all of the bases but please let me know if there is anything anyone else wants to see!

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2014, 02:42:14 pm »

Quote from: Brian Hirschfeld on January 24, 2014, 02:19:17 pm

Thanks, yes I will hoping to get my hands on it as early in the week as possible.

Hi Brian,

Article looks good, just change the shipping date to 2014 ...

Quote

Definitely going to shoot an ISO comparison with an 80mp or 60mp, prob 60mp since its the closest comparison, maybe both for the same money.

Don't forget to compare ISO 1600 + 2 stops push in postprocessing, with ISO 6400. There may be little difference other than 2 stops of highlight overexposure headroom.

Quote

Also going to see what happens when its put on a tech cam.

Yes, it will be interesting to see if the micro-lenses are an issue, and the smaller sensor may be an advantage with proper retrofocus lens designs.

Cheers,
Bart

Brian Hirschfeld · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2014, 02:51:58 pm »

I'm not terribly convinced that it is 2014 yet....

Thanks for the suggestion I certainly will.

Yes, that is my only real point of confusion or disappointment with this CMOS system is that it might not be handy with tech cams since obviously thats one of the places where its live-view could be great. But, due to the microlenses and deeper pixel wells it might create color casts which are too strong for even LCC"s with 14 stops of dynamic range, but again, we will see what happens.

Louis Novak · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:30:59 pm »

The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2014, 06:36:05 pm »

Does that also apply to Rodenstock lenses?

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Louis Novak on January 24, 2014, 05:30:59 pm

The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.

Paul2660 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2014, 06:43:17 pm »

Odds are the Rodenstocks will be OK center and may allow for some shift, especially the 40mm and up. The 23 and 28 may have trouble period. The 32mm maybe also.

All the lenses are now base focal x 1.3 so wides are taking a big hit.

Paul

gerald.d · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2014, 09:38:13 pm »

ISO 400, 8 second exposure, IQ250 vs IQ260 please!

Doug Peterson · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2014, 09:53:54 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2014, 06:36:05 pm

Does that also apply to Rodenstock lenses?

As per https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-11-things-to-know we'll be doing testing.

I think the only things safe to say at this point is that Schneider wide angles are out of the question.

Which Roddys will work with what amount of shift with what results before/after LCC is still an open question. But one DT hopes to close with testing this coming week

.

LKaven · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2014, 11:53:03 pm »

Hey Brian,

One thing these Exmor sensors are known for is thermal noise, presumably due to the amount of active circuitry on the sensor. In many ways, this is the only fly in the ointment. It would be very useful, if you get the chance, to check out the following:

1) Black frame at ISO 6400, 1/60th. (No NR in capture)
2) Black frame from (1) with +2EV exposure compensation
3) (1) & (2) after 1 minute of live view

If none of these tests reveal any thermal noise, this is a very good finding! It'd be interesting to see where the noise becomes intrusive. Trying at slower shutter speeds should reveal something.

Obviously, at some shutter speed there is a mandatory and automatic black frame subtraction, which pretty much fixes the problem. The black frame subtraction should probably be an option at high gain settings even at slower handheld shutter speeds.

gerald.d · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2014, 12:14:34 am »

Quote from: LKaven on January 24, 2014, 11:53:03 pm

Obviously, at some shutter speed there is a mandatory and automatic black frame subtraction, which pretty much fixes the problem. The black frame subtraction should probably be an option at high gain settings even at slower handheld shutter speeds.

As per Doug's comment on GetDPI, there is a black frame subtraction at EVERY shutter speed.

(I have no idea how this works on a tech cam, because it would seem from the EXIF data that at higher shutter speeds, the back has no idea what the true shutter speed actually was.)

LKaven · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2014, 01:19:00 am »

Quote from: gerald.d on January 25, 2014, 12:14:34 am

As per Doug's comment on GetDPI, there is a black frame subtraction at EVERY shutter speed.

I did not see that! If that's true, I take back my request to Brian with apologies.

I think that this is an appropriate policy for these sensors. I wish that the D800 had an option to do black frame subtraction full-time if desired.

Theodoros · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2014, 02:45:15 am »

Quote from: Louis Novak on January 24, 2014, 05:30:59 pm

The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.

How do we know that there are microlenses on the sensor…? Is there any official information that has been posted?

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2014, 03:57:13 am »

Hi,

I guess that a senior technical adviser at the largest Phase One dealer is pretty well informed on the IQ 250 sensor, don't you think?

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: T.Dascalos on January 25, 2014, 02:45:15 am

How do we know that there are microlenses on the sensor…? Is there any official information that has been posted?

Theodoros · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:15:40 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2014, 03:57:13 am

Hi,

I guess that a senior technical adviser at the largest Phase One dealer is pretty well informed on the IQ 250 sensor, don't you think?

Best regards
Erik

Do you mean Doug? …I would trust Doug, but I may have missed the post, can you please provide a link? Thanks.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2014, 04:27:54 am »

Hi,

No, the person you were responding to: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=72054

I also feel Doug is trustworthy, but he is not alone, Steve Hendrix at CI is a good guy, it seems.

But, there are probably a lot of misconceptions about microlenses. It seems that all new Phase One backs have microlenses, including the IQ 260. On the other hand microlenses have been improved.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: T.Dascalos on January 25, 2014, 04:15:40 am

Do you mean Doug? …I would trust Doug, but I may have missed the post, can you please provide a link? Thanks.

julienlanoo · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2014, 05:35:40 am »

Guys, didnt you remark, this time, P1 hasnt asked a Architecture photographer to do marketing ,.. Normally they do, could be a hint in that :p

Theodoros · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2014, 06:49:31 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2014, 04:27:54 am

Hi,

No, the person you were responding to: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=72054

I also feel Doug is trustworthy, but he is not alone, Steve Hendrix at CI is a good guy, it seems.

But, there are probably a lot of misconceptions about microlenses. It seems that all new Phase One backs have microlenses, including the IQ 260. On the other hand microlenses have been improved.

Best regards
Erik

Can someone enlighten us here? …Erik claims that all IQ2 series have microlenses… I know P65+ didn't have any and that Sinarback 86h & Exact (which use the same Dalsa sensor cropped at 48x36mm at 48mp) doesn't have either… I find it strange for Dalsa to have added microlenses on their sensors, they never had up until (and including) the 60mp sensor was introduced. I don't see why they may have changed… The backs (of both P1 & Leaf that use the same sensors) are quite popular among view camera users, they wouldn't be if they had any micro lenses on…

LATER EDIT: Just found this in Leaf's site… http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/architecture.html it claims that Credos are perfect for use on tech/view cameras with ultra wide-angles… I guess this solves the problem.

torger · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2014, 07:17:41 am »

All Dalsa 6um tech has micro lenses but a less crude variant, as far as I know. Color cast issues stem from various aspects of sensor design, so I think it's not a thing that is decided only by having microlenses or not. As users the only we can do is to actually test and see what happens.

Look at dalsa web site, they say "Micro lenses with wide angular response" in the presentation of their 60 and 48 megapixel 6um sensors

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/area-scan/FTF9168C/

Micro lenses vs no micro lenses is a property of the past, when micro lenses had really poor angular response. However, I guess the P65 could have even better angular response without micro lenses, but there is no such sensor on the market as far as I know.

If I understand CMOS tech properly it would work extremely bad without them, one would get like ISO 10 or something with huge vignetting so it's not really an option.

Author Topic: PhaseOne IQ250 (Read 6135 times)