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Author Topic: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5  (Read 14265 times)

Lorenzo Pierucci

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Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« on: January 24, 2014, 12:17:47 am »

Hi everybody!

Just bought this Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5, is my first ever 4x5 lens, on my first ever 4x5 system. ( exited )

I will use it mostly with a Valeo 22 on a Toyo view ( with recessed board and bellow bag ), but also with film. I will like to know if anyone have some experience with this lens, and any suggestion, or recommendation in what this lens is capable to do in the right hands.

I will also love to see some sample so that your experience can motivate me to do better :)

Also with film you guys like to use with this lens?

thanks guys!
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Tiger1

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 04:21:43 am »

The maximum recommended format is 72mm x 96mm so really it shouldn't be used with 4x5 sheet film.

This lens was really designed to be used with digital backs and scanning backs.  I guess you could use it with old 6x9 roll film holders and any 120/220 roll film you wish will do the job!

Hope that helps!
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RomanN.

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 05:02:37 am »

the Apo sironar Digital is not redesigner, but to 100 Procent same lens like the Apo grandagon 55. All Apo sironars digital are Film lenses.
There are no design changes! Rodentsock write that the digital lenses are optimated for the digital filter size. Thats mean that at calibration of the lens in the shutter the lens is calibrated on the chip. You get do this also with the film lenses, when is would be important. You need best contrast and sharpness at 8 or 11 for digital backs, therefore the calibration is to improve this. At digital optimated lens the image circle is given for app.8-11. but you can use it also for film at app.22, it will be great for 4x5 inch. use a centerfilter for Film. At App.22 the image circle grow to the maximum. The 22 the lens have 110°.
All rodentsock non HR lenses are film lenses, apo grandagons, sironar-Ns, apo rodagons or something like mixed rodagon-sironar s lenses.
With digital label you can be sure that the lens is well optimated for digtal and simply a pretty new lens.
The 55 mm lens is a great choise anyway for both: digital and film. Enjoy it.
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Tiger1

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 05:50:35 am »

Maybe you should read Rodenstock's own literature:

http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Digital_Lenses_3-26__8236.pdf

Scroll down to the Apo-sironar digital 55mm f4.5.  Maximum recommended format is 72mm x 96mm  i.e. 6x9 Roll film.  It will NOT cover 4x5 sheet film and is NOT designed to.
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Lorenzo Pierucci

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 07:40:05 am »

the Apo sironar Digital is not redesigner, but to 100 Procent same lens like the Apo grandagon 55. All Apo sironars digital are Film lenses.
There are no design changes! Rodentsock write that the digital lenses are optimated for the digital filter size. Thats mean that at calibration of the lens in the shutter the lens is calibrated on the chip. You get do this also with the film lenses, when is would be important. You need best contrast and sharpness at 8 or 11 for digital backs, therefore the calibration is to improve this. At digital optimated lens the image circle is given for app.8-11. but you can use it also for film at app.22, it will be great for 4x5 inch. use a centerfilter for Film. At App.22 the image circle grow to the maximum. The 22 the lens have 110°.
All rodentsock non HR lenses are film lenses, apo grandagons, sironar-Ns, apo rodagons or something like mixed rodagon-sironar s lenses.
With digital label you can be sure that the lens is well optimated for digtal and simply a pretty new lens.
The 55 mm lens is a great choise anyway for both: digital and film. Enjoy it.


Great hands on tips! that was what i was looking for! :)

Cant wait start shooting!
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Lorenzo Pierucci

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 07:51:41 am »

Maybe you should read Rodenstock's own literature:

http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Digital_Lenses_3-26__8236.pdf

Scroll down to the Apo-sironar digital 55mm f4.5.  Maximum recommended format is 72mm x 96mm  i.e. 6x9 Roll film.  It will NOT cover 4x5 sheet film and is NOT designed to.

Thanks!
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RomanN.

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 11:25:57 am »

" It will NOT cover 4x5 sheet film and is NOT designed to."-
very funny! I use this lens every week for both: digital and 4x5. It is really very funny. Maybe my 55 are made by aliens from mars.

- always Just use your brain and make your experiance, you will always save money: take the 55mm on a 4x5 inch, use App. 22, make a shot on polaroid, you will see in 20 seconds, the lens fully cover 4x5 inch even with some little movements.

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Tiger1

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 08:11:16 pm »

" It will NOT cover 4x5 sheet film and is NOT designed to."-
very funny! I use this lens every week for both: digital and 4x5. It is really very funny. Maybe my 55 are made by aliens from mars.

- always Just use your brain and make your experiance, you will always save money: take the 55mm on a 4x5 inch, use App. 22, make a shot on polaroid, you will see in 20 seconds, the lens fully cover 4x5 inch even with some little movements.


Well if you have no light fall off good luck to you.  The fact is that for use on a view camera you will not be able to get much movement at all, which I thought was one of the main reasons for using a view camera in the first place. And if you are stuck with F22 to get adequate coverage with little movement it's rather limiting don't you think?
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RomanN.

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 08:28:45 pm »

Apo grandagon and apo sironar digital are same lenses, of same design and same imagecircle. best you call technical chief of rodenstock, he will explain you this. The differance is only in the calibration to the digital chip and the filter in front of.
the 55 mm is a extremly wide angle for 4x5 inch, the most extremly from Rodentstock, Schneider have also the 47 xl that is more extrem.
55 mm will give you something like 12-14 mm lens compered to 35 mm full frame. All extrem wide angle like schneider 47mm xl 120°, 58mm xl110° and roddi 55 mm 110° will need a center filter, like every wide angle as need- when you dont want the fall of. this is a technical fact according to all extem wide angle lenses in this world, not only for 55 mm. We talk about the differences between the digital and non digital version of the 4,5 / 55 mm, and there are non. It is only advertising. The same is with apo digitar 47 xl and late super angulon 47 mm MC- same lenses, both 100°, 8 elements lens. Have both and there exist nobody who could see any differences in praxis, used with 39 mln back and 80 mln back. In fact both, 55 mm and 47 mm are really cheap and good lenses, very good value.
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Tiger1

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2014, 05:03:39 am »

The 55mm 4.5 Apo Grandagon covers 163mm at f11.
The 55mm 4.5 Apo Sironar Digital covers 125mm at f11.

Although they may look similar they are not.  The image performance at the edge of the 4x5 film will be inferior with the digital version.  This is a direct quote from Rodenstock. 

So if they are wrong don't blame me!!!!!
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RomanN.

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2014, 06:55:58 am »

first of all: the cover app for 4x5 inch is 22 not 11.
second- nice to know that my 4x5 material have poor corners.
listen: you dont have the lens and never used it, right? and you want tell me something about the lens, right?
this is a really funny situation, maybe you make your experiances first, than talk about it.
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Alan7140

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 06:50:49 pm »

The Grandagon and Sironar labels refer to two totally different lens designs - Grandagon is Rodenstock's wide-angle design, Sironar is their normal-angle lens design (just as Distagon is Zeiss' wide-angle, and Planar their normal-angle).

APO_GRANDAGON:


APO_SIRONAR Digital:


Clearly these are not the same lens design.

While coverage is usually given at f/22 by Rodenstock, it is also specifically calculated at infinity. Focussing closer extends that circle, so particularly with wide-angles when focussed close or at hyperfocal distance for infinity sharpness may well have a greater effective image circle than is published. With a 55mm lens using a COC of 0.2mm as being acceptably sharp, focussing at 1 metre will have a depth of field from ~60cm to infinity @ f/22, and will also have a coverage circle well in excess of the published circle as a consequence. So while the 55mm APO-Sironar Digital may well cover 5x4, it is not designed as a wide-angle lens so will not perform as well as the designed wide-angle of the 55mm APO-Grandagon when used on 5"x4" format.

Again, Rodenstock clearly state the recommended format for the Apo-Sironar Digital 55/4.5 is 72x96mm, and for the 55/4.5 Apo-Grandagon is 9x12cm/4"x5". While the Apo-Sironar may cover 4x5" if focussed correctly and stopped down to the point of diffraction starting to occur, it is not designed for that purpose, which the Apo-Grandagon is.

I can't follow the reasoning of trying to mount an argument that the two 55mm lens designs are the same - even Rodenstock say they're not, and they design and make the things.

Optimisation for digital generally covers the coating on the rear element that specifically works to not reflect the image highlights on the sensor and then exposing as out-of-focus reflected blurs in the image. There is usually no magic redesign of the lens itself past also optimising the lens for best performance between f/5.6 and f/11 or f/16, after which diffraction becomes an increasing problem with the microlenses on the sensor.
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Lorenzo Pierucci

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2014, 12:50:41 am »


Again, Rodenstock clearly state the recommended format for the Apo-Sironar Digital 55/4.5 is 72x96mm, and for the 55/4.5 Apo-Grandagon is 9x12cm/4"x5". While the Apo-Sironar may cover 4x5" if focussed correctly and stopped down to the point of diffraction starting to occur, it is not designed for that purpose, which the Apo-Grandagon is.


I bought this lens for 2 main purpose: interior architectural to stitching with my Valeo 22 ( 40x53 mm sensor ) which will need then a coverage of 80x106. I will shoot mostly somewhere between 16 and 22. As the valeo is just 22 MP resolution should not be a issue right?

Also i bought this lens as in the Rodenstock website they state:

Apo-Sironar digital / Apo-Macro-Sironar digital
Both lens series Apo-Sironar digital and Apo-Macro-Sironar digital (the latter is optimized for large scales) provide large image circles and leave enough space for camera movement. These lenses are ideal for use with digital scan backs as well as with chip backs having larger formats or for being used in the macro-scan mode for larger formats by stitching multiple shots made with laterally shifted back from one shot to the next. Resolving power is designed for a pixel pitch down to 9 µm. These lenses are the perfect solution for photographers who use both digital photography and roll film.


As i want to shoot also some film, which i never did before on 4x5, it was seems a good choice. i don't think i will ever use this lens at aperture wider then f8.

This lens should to the trick for the job right? If i compare to a 36 mm equivalent it will be like a 15 mm on a 80x106 area? ( math can trick me… )

Thanks guys for all the great material shared, things are getting together

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Tiger1

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 01:39:38 am »

first of all: the cover app for 4x5 inch is 22 not 11.
second- nice to know that my 4x5 material have poor corners.
listen: you dont have the lens and never used it, right? and you want tell me something about the lens, right?
this is a really funny situation, maybe you make your experiances first, than talk about it.

You are correct.  I don't have the lens.  I have many other large Format lenses and have been involved in photography for 30 years.

Generally speaking film lenses in LF are optimised at F22.  The digital lenses are optimised for F8-11.  They have a different lens design.
These are all facts.  They are stated by the manufacturer.

If you don't believe them then write to Rodenstock and tell them they are lying on their website to the consumer.

All YOU can say is that in your experience you have found a different outcome - well good luck to you!

I am merely providing the OP with information that is not an opinion but that is factual and backed up by the manufacturer.

He has bought a fine lens.  He will enjoy it on his valeo 22MP back.  Shooting 4x5 will mean he won't have the camera movements he has at his disposal with the smaller format digital back.  As long as he aware of this then I am satisfied.
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Lorenzo Pierucci

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 06:22:31 am »


He has bought a fine lens.  He will enjoy it on his valeo 22MP back.  Shooting 4x5 will mean he won't have the camera movements he has at his disposal with the smaller format digital back.  As long as he aware of this then I am satisfied.

Thanks so much for the info :)

So i will still have a lot of movement even in a double stitch of a MF sensor, as long i don't go 4x5, in which case, will have basically full coverage but not full movement.

That's sounds good as is a fair price good lens. I think more expensive digital ones will be for 40 MP up sensors.

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RomanN.

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 07:14:12 pm »

First of all: I am geman and rodenstock is a german company.If I want to know something I just call them. Its a very nice company, they are very helpfull.
second : I talk about the 55 mm when a get one with technical guys from rodenstock, they explain me what the difference is.
So read what Rodenstock write about the difference  exactly, and what they mean by that.
The physical design is the same. The calibration different.
The image circle are same: the differance is to write about the right aperture-image cirlcle for digital and for analoge. The first 8-11 for digital, second 22 for 4x5 analoge.
The image circle grows to 22  and is 110° at both.
I will not repead myself any longer.
To allan:
sorry that I must say it: you are wrong.
Apo sironar digitals are not Apo sironars!- absolutly not!.
This name is indeen not really helpfull, therfore the new name Digaron is really better.
the digitals have nothing to do with Apo sironars- rodenstock choose the totaly wrong name for it.
Apo sironar N lenses are 6 elements 72° lenses like Symmar- not Planars!
this are standart and longer lenses for 4x5-8x10...
only some longer Apo sironar digitals (maybe only this one) like 105 mm are old apo sironar N 72°, so 6 elements design.
The wider apo sironar digital are apo grandagons 35,45,55, 8 element wide angle constractions ( like super angulon) 120° and 110° designs, very well corrected, developed for 120 film. only 55 cover 4x5.
When you compare pics than compare the right pics: compare 55 grandagon and 55 digital, and you will see the same design. The longer A.sironar digital are different, mixed constructions from sironar and rodagon ( same apo componon by schneider),
Some lenses are made new: for examle 90 mm digital, but based on film lenses. Of course the HR are fully new thing and fully digital.
I thing I wrote enough till now. I will not write any more to this case.
Lorenzo just make your experiance- it will be fine.
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8x10 user

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 06:17:04 pm »

The Grandagon and Sironar labels refer to two totally different lens designs - Grandagon is Rodenstock's wide-angle design, Sironar is their normal-angle lens design (just as Distagon is Zeiss' wide-angle, and Planar their normal-angle).

APO_GRANDAGON:


APO_SIRONAR Digital:


Actually I believe the second picture is a 90mm Apo Sironar Digital and not one of the 35mm, 45mm, or 55mm wide angle type Sironar Digitals... I looked at my 90mm and it seems to have the configuration in the last picture. The inner elements really give it away.
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melchiorpavone

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2014, 08:59:49 pm »

Well if you have no light fall off good luck to you.  The fact is that for use on a view camera you will not be able to get much movement at all, which I thought was one of the main reasons for using a view camera in the first place. And if you are stuck with F22 to get adequate coverage with little movement it's rather limiting don't you think?

It seems pointless to argue with those who have no knowledge of optics. This happens all the time. Photographers are not particularly knowledgeable about the technical aspects of their equipment. It has been this way for as long as I can remember.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:25:20 am by melchiorpavone »
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8x10 user

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 01:12:26 am »

The theoretical limit of diffraction at F/22 is 71 line pairs per mm or ~3600 pixels per inch. On a 4x5 sheet of film that is quite enough!

In terms of coverage. I do suspect that the apo sironar digital 35-55mm are about the same as the apo grandagon's at F/22. A center filter should be use to maximize the functionality of the image circle.

The 70 and 90mm Apo Sironar digitals are the same as the 70 and 90mm Apo Sironar digitals HRs and Digarons w's. These are recommended for backs as high as 60 megapixels.

The Digaron SW has replaced the Digaron W and is good for 80 megapixels. However larger apertures need to be used for 80mp backs which reduces depth of field. Many studio photographers have moved to Hasselblad cameras for use with high MP backs in order make focus stacking easier and overcome depth of field limitations.  
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 01:21:11 am by 8x10 user »
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Lorenzo Pierucci

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Re: Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 55mm f/4.5
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 12:11:42 pm »

So here my hands on experience:

If i do a calibration file for each photo i stitch ( which i have pre saved ) i can go up to 9 stitch of Leaf 22 MP. I end up with some gorgeous 10000 more pix wide files. Basically 4x5 digital.
With te polaroid i have severe falloff even without movement.

It work GREAT for digital, while for 4x5 film is good for portrait or any other application that accept vignetting ( especially when swigged around ) but not for arch.

See example.

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