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Author Topic: are photographs improving?  (Read 11759 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2014, 07:19:18 pm »

There are many aspects to what we call photography and creating images is just one of them.

Others include:
- Selecting/buying equipment,
- Owning equipment,
- Showing off with equipment,
- Testing equipment,
- Comparing equipment without having used it/owned it/tested it,
- Sleeping with equipment,
- Spending time behind a computer away from other possible occupations,
- Talking about photography/writing about photography,
- ...

For good or for bad, many of these things have been made a lot easier/natural thanks to the digital revolution.

The desire to make better images alone would never have resulted in the huge revenue increase the whole photographic sector has benefited from in the last 10 years. The question remains the same... who benefits from the crime... and you will have found the name of the perpetrator!  ;)

Now, have images become better? My feeling is very much that photography remains essentially in the mind of the photographer, his understanding of the medium in terms of playing with light, time, perspective, composition,... Those who managed to do that with lesser media typically are still very good at it today.

But I feel that some people who never got interested, because of the hurdles of analog photography and the resulting learning curves, do now focus time on photography and that must result in the creation of some successful images.

So I would say that over, yes, photography has been improving. I am sure this crazy greek cat agrees!



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 12:53:41 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Alan Klein

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2014, 10:13:42 pm »

It got better.

Schewe

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 12:05:48 am »

digital photography creates a googleplexian of pictures but how many of them are images that move us. the line at the top says "equipment and technique" and i think we spend too much time on the first and the later get short shifted by many photographers. maybe because i would take and old master and their paintings over a jackson pollock i'm stuck in the past. if so i'm sorry about this.

If you have to ask this question, I'm not sure you would understand the answer.

Of course, today's photography is "better" in many/most respects but are the images today's photographers are producing better? Sometimes...but not always.

Not sure if you ever spent much time shooting in the old days of film, but I can tell you, getting a solid image on film was much harder than getting it in digital. What you do with the image and the impact and importance to society is a different subject.

What you are asking is self evident...of course digital photography is much further advanced than the old film photography was...if you know what lens to use and when to release the shutter. Dooh!

You would do better to quit worrying about whether we are making progress and worry more about whether you are making progress. Are you?
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Fine_Art

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 01:10:09 am »

Over 90% of getting a great picture is being at the right place at the right time. So people like Michael and Kevin that go on these great trips have a monopoly on exotic places to wow us. Then add their great skill with high end equipment, you are really limited by chance occurrences. The world is not more photogenic in any century.

So yes, technique and equipment are inevitably the topics of conversation on forums.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 02:45:22 am »

Opportunity is a fine thing.

You make your own opportunities.

We have avoided, largely, naming names but take HCB, was his work "better" did he "progress his art" when he was able to visit China, America, India?
I would suggest his "best" work certainly artistically was taken locally in france very early in his career. His later use of "better" equipment, M series, advanced his art and vision not one jot IMHO.
Did Koudelka ever "better"  his Prague invasion work shot with odds and ends of film?



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torger

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 03:32:30 am »

I rather think about "development" rather than "improving". You can't make the same thing over and over and over again, and the more time we have behind us the more things have already been done.

But yes, technological advancements have expanded the possibilities of creativity. We can see wildlife photography today that was impossible in the past, thanks to new technology. Long lenses, high ISO, auto focus has changed the possibilities in fundamental ways. The development is even more obvious in video than in stills.

Digital post-processing has also expanded the creativity. I'd say that it's not always used in the best of ways, but many pictures made today could not have been made in the past.

The greatest advancement in photography I think however is that it has become much more accessible, more amateurs and non-photographers can enjoy it thanks to cheaper and more user-friendly cameras. Sure that does mean that we get flooded by more bad images :-), but after-all I find it more important that more people can enjoy family photos and photography as a hobby than if we get more and better artists.

When it comes to medium format systems we've mostly just seen improvements in image quality, and then mainly in resolution. It does make better prints, how much that matter is up to you to decide, but I sure like it. However I think that we're reaching a point where further resolution enhancement is not very meaningful (except possibly from a signal processing perspective), past 60 megapixels only few subjects can make use of it, and the pushing of resolving power lead to extreme optical designs with various drawbacks.
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Rob C

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 04:29:46 am »

Some say that digital makes photography easier; others, such as myself, firmly dispute that.

Photography first took on a difficult aspect with the advent of my F4s; suddenly, I couldn't even be certain that I had managed to load the film correctly, that it had engaged with the drive sprocket. Why? Because Nikon, in its madness, had imagined that snapping shut a camera back without first connecting a strip of film to a simple drive mechanism was going to be more reliable a method of engaging that film to the drive. Madre de Dios - absurdity. And blush after blush with failure after failure to perform that single, basic photographic essential.

But clicking the click was no more difficult then than now. The problems remain identical: correct exposure for your needs. And that's a mind decision, not simply a metered one.

As for making the shapes of your pictures, it was far easier with film because the viewfinders of good cameras were better. The direct consequence of that was that focus was easier. And no, I don't buy into the notion that digital is sharper and so focus has to be more accurate etc. etc. because focus, at the end of the day, is not usually something dependent on a very thin plane being rendered very crisply, it's about zones appearing crisp enough for the purposes required; we are suffering from yet more photographic nonsense issued by those fine photographers of walls, in whose case, a specif, non-usual form of focus does indeed apply.

I'm thinking here of a very expensive brand of camera, where one window is apparently used for focussing and yet another viewing form is utilized for seeing the actual area that the format is covering; is that so much better than what was being offered in the pre-M3 days, when exactly the same concept was thought a big deal? (My little Voigtlander Vito B required exactly the same double-decision system, except that the additional purchase of an external, accessory shoe rangefinder made me feel I was very much - or at least looked very much - the complete photographer!) I can't see that being better than any film reflex cameras that offered 100% viewfinder accuracy. But then, the same brand that offers the current exotica didn't offer 100% viewing back in the film era, either, though the prices were still stellar.

As for aesthetics, we have travelled that path until it's worn quite away. Aestheics are not camera functions - they are head-cum-heart functions - the human bit.

Camera technique. Photography must be one of the most simple concepts imaginable: focus, aperture, shutter speed and receptor sensitivity.

The process after that, the darkroom, was basic, and some now believe the computer to be even more so. I don't think it is, just that it allows more detailed control in some situations but also denies you the simple exposure control you had by moving your hand slowly (or rapidly) beneath the beam of light from the lens. You have no idea the number of times that I wish I could simply shade in a side or corner with the ease that my hand allowed. Yes, I do know ways to do it with Photoshop, but the hand was better, instinctive and very quick.

So harking back to the original question: no, I don't think photographs are improving at all, and I believe the art of photography, as a proportion of the volume of images made, has been diminished considerably in favour of a much larger mechanical heap of rubbish. Highly complicated sets of layers do not, of themselves, make interesting images, just images that are the result of said highly complex layers. The saying about those who know the price of everything but the value of nothing seems to have an ugly sister running a parallel course in digital photography.

Rob C

Rob C

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 05:15:20 am »

But now - and to my surprise and delight - I find I can focus and compose with the one window with the advantage of achieving 100% accurate focus, exposure and framing and directly from the sensor.

We have never had better means to make beautiful, sharp and correctly exposed images or sharp and correctly exposed shit.


I love that!

As a side-note: I always carry a clothes peg in my pocket. Problem is, it should actually be a filter - save me a lot of time later on.

;-)

Rob C

Hulyss

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 05:41:42 am »

One thing that have changed is : Internet.

The more you get information through internet the less you are creative, this is my analysis.

We see vast clanism / tribalism based on trends : One guy is creative >> many like >> many follow and try to reproduce.

Computers and internet in general like to "copy". This fact sweat on photographers >> They reproduce. They copy.

The guys who have the intelligence to think by themselves and then, want to emancipate, are often judged as marginals or ignored (because out of the trend, the group, the clan, the tribe).

Even thought you think you can emancipate, you are often wrong because you have been contaminated, sub consciously, by what you seen on internet.

What make you think that some photographs improved can also be due to the post processing and software improvements. People love to share the way they cook.

Thus lead to an another form of Clanism / Tribalism again, but more monopolised by software industry. Software industry are now the "artists".

People do not read any-more.

For me, the only way to be creative is to grow your imagination.

The better way to grow your imagination is : Reading.

The way you imagine what you read is unique. The more complicated is to interpret what you think and transforming it into an image.

Then you see that the material is not important.

Then, you see that the spoon do not exist.


   
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eronald

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2014, 06:25:11 am »

The new education device, the iPad, lacks a pen :)

Edmund

One thing that have changed is : Internet.

The more you get information through internet the less you are creative, this is my analysis.

We see vast clanism / tribalism based on trends : One guy is creative >> many like >> many follow and try to reproduce.

Computers and internet in general like to "copy". This fact sweat on photographers >> They reproduce. They copy.

The guys who have the intelligence to think by themselves and then, want to emancipate, are often judged as marginals or ignored (because out of the trend, the group, the clan, the tribe).

Even thought you think you can emancipate, you are often wrong because you have been contaminated, sub consciously, by what you seen on internet.

What make you think that some photographs improved can also be due to the post processing and software improvements. People love to share the way they cook.

Thus lead to an another form of Clanism / Tribalism again, but more monopolised by software industry. Software industry are now the "artists".

People do not read any-more.

For me, the only way to be creative is to grow your imagination.

The better way to grow your imagination is : Reading.

The way you imagine what you read is unique. The more complicated is to interpret what you think and transforming it into an image.

Then you see that the material is not important.

Then, you see that the spoon do not exist.


   
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Rob C

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2014, 10:29:57 am »


The more you get information through internet the less you are creative, this is my analysis.

We see vast clanism / tribalism based on trends : One guy is creative >> many like >> many follow and try to reproduce.

Even thought you think you can emancipate, you are often wrong because you have been contaminated, sub consciously, by what you seen on internet.

For me, the only way to be creative is to grow your imagination.



Yes, and that's why I always advise newbies to avoid 'critique' of their own work, especially, and to look at websites of great snappers. My theory is that you have to struggle to keep your own ideas, and by looking at a lot of images, you discover what it is within yourself that really, really drives you to care about pictures. When you have reached that position, then it's easy to learn the mechanics of photography and start walking the walk along your chosen path.

Possibly the worst thing you can do, after listening to the 'experts', is to try and do a bit of everything. It leads you nowhere other than absolute confusion and mastery of nothing at all.

If you do want to take up photography, you should know that if you become any good, then you have almost certainly committed yourself to a lifetime of more of the same, and to a constant drain on your wallet. You better be rich. It's like boats: the purchase is just the membership fee.

Rob C

Chris Barrett

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2014, 10:35:54 am »

I'm making better work than I ever did on film.  There are two different aspects to that and they're development is coincidental.  Firstly, the image quality of medium format digital is vastly superior to what I could achieve with 4x5 transparency.  Also, it's far easier to composite images.  Compositing scanned film rarely achieved perfect registration.  Emulsions expand and shrink through development and drying, so you can't get pixel level perfection when layering images.  Compositing also allows me to push the images further in dynamic range and sometimes light elements from within the composition.  Also we can zoom into the image on the laptop to make sure all compositional elements are interacting in the best possible way.  Try to achieve that level of finesse with 4x5 polaroid!

Secondly, my vision and technique continue to evolve.  My work is constantly improving as I continue to grow.  Perhaps I'll be satisfied with my work when I'm old and dying, but up until now... it's just never been good enough.  This is irrelevant to the advent of digital, but coincides nicely with it.

One last thing about personal development as an artist:  we grow by working, reviewing our work and making small improvements, growing fractionally every single day.  The immediacy of digital capture kicks that evolution into overdrive.  I've done bodies of work over a weekend that would have taken weeks to evolve if I had been shooting, developing and printing film.  

What's interesting to me is that while digital has allowed a lot of photographers to become lazier and sloppier, with a photoshop mentality...  I have actually become more studied in my work.  I love being able to examine every element in detail on the screen.

Rinse and repeat.

CB

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2014, 12:02:59 pm »

....
One last thing about personal development as an artist:  we grow by working, reviewing our work and making small improvements, growing fractionally every single day.  The immediacy of digital capture kicks that evolution into overdrive.  I've done bodies of work over a weekend that would have taken weeks to evolve if I had been shooting, developing and printing film.  

What's interesting to me is that while digital has allowed a lot of photographers to become lazier and sloppier, with a photoshop mentality...  I have actually become more studied in my work.  I love being able to examine every element in detail on the screen.

Rinse and repeat.

CB


The final part of your post pretty much nails it.
While technique can help you to evolve, it can also make you lazy.
In the end those who strive harder (and still know marketing yadda yadda ..)will survive.
Cheers
~Chris
 

bcooter

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2014, 01:04:24 pm »

Commercial work is more professional, but I don't think any more or less creative.

Editorial work is less daring for the major titles to the point I can't tell one cover from the next. if you ignore the masthead.

Personal work . . . probably is the same.

The best work I see is television trailers.  There seems to be an excellent synergy of concept, graphic design and photography.   

IMO

BC
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eronald

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2014, 01:25:24 pm »

Yes, the trailer of True Detective is interesting.

Commercial work is more professional, but I don't think any more or less creative.

Editorial work is less daring for the major titles to the point I can't tell one cover from the next. if you ignore the masthead.

Personal work . . . probably is the same.

The best work I see is television trailers.  There seems to be an excellent synergy of concept, graphic design and photography.   

IMO

BC
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Rob C

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2014, 02:15:32 pm »

I agree with James regarding motion imagery: surprisingly, by far the best landscape work that I see appears on documentaries associated with history, art or wildlife, rather than in traditional media for landscape. BBC4 rules - for me, at least.

I think that's down to the eye of the ciné people, and perhaps also due to the fact that they appear to be blessed with the budgets to get themselves airborne and see what the average Joe never can.

A not too distant - never too distant because of regular repeats - series on popular British drives of the early 50s revealed a country I could hardly recognize as my own. Wonderful countryside rivalling much of rural France.

Insofar as the photography of people: just watch some of the Beeb's period-pieces if you wish to look at exquisite lighting of faces, rooms and atmosphere in general. Of course, they aren't selling brochures for these places, so their remits are different, and that's perhaps why it's not fair to compare architectural snappers doing commercial work with tv photography.

Rob C
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 02:19:24 pm by Rob C »
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Telecaster

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2014, 04:16:20 pm »

Yes, the trailer of True Detective is interesting.

Reminds me of True Blood actually...but I like it just the same. Harrelson & McConaughey (What happened to this guy?! It's like his creative genes mutated and all of a sudden he's a powerhouse.) are terrific.

-Dave-
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jerome_m

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2014, 04:44:46 pm »

The biggest library of photographs is held today by Facebook with over 300 billion images, most of which are cheap food, drunk parties and duckface selfies. Does this answer the question?
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Telecaster

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2014, 05:09:02 pm »

The biggest library of photographs is held today by Facebook with over 300 billion images, most of which are cheap food, drunk parties and duckface selfies. Does this answer the question?

No. It just tells us that more photos overall means more crap. About the quality of the creative stuff it tells us nothing.

Over time I've grown more intrigued by the Buddhist sand mandala approach to photography. Take your photos, process as desired, print if desired, enjoy 'em for a relatively brief period...then wipe 'em and move on. Kinda like Snapchat.   :D  I can tell you the part of photography I enjoy the most is the actual doing of it. IMO we fetishize the photographs themselves too much. Facebook oughta keep everything uploaded to it for a week or a month or so, then dump it.

-Dave-
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Tony Jay

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Re: are photographs improving?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2014, 05:11:30 pm »

The advances in digital photography make for a potential improvement in captured images.
However, this is potential only, not necessarily actual.
For me it is still possible shoot the same rubbish with digital equipment as I did with analog equipment.
When I do get it right, however, it is true that the result can be better than any slide film equivalent.

A good technician with a lot of creativity can certainly do good stuff with current digital equipment but merely owning and using a high-end camera and lenses is no guarantee of anything.

What makes for a good photographic image in the end is an ethereal combination of the technical and creative but the best images are noteworthy not because of the equipment or the techniques employed but the fact that it evokes an aesthetic response irrespective.
It is also worth reiterating that some of the most noteworthy images in the history of photography have marked technical deficiencies but we don't care.

Tony Jay
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