Dye Sublimation metal prints (From our crashed thread)

[dgberg]

To answer Mike Sellers question
"What can you do with dye sub other then tshirts"?
One of the hottest selling products on the market right now is dye sublimated Chromaluxe metal prints.
Many do the dye sub process for sportswear and other advertising products as Mike suggests. There are about a hundred products you can dye sub.
The advertising products although cool are not really my area of interest. (Sublimated iphone covers are really hot for the teen set.)
In addition to metal I am trying some of the ceramic tile and slate products. They are very nice,and something a little different.
I have already seen several landscape photographers offering these for between $30.00 and $40.00.
Costs are $2.50-$4.00 per tile/slate and paper is about .50 with ink adding another.25 plus the hanger. Thats about $5.00 to $7.00 for something you can possibly sell for $40.00.
The whole process takes maybe 15 minutes each from start to finish.
The largest metal prints I can press with my new DK-25sp air press is 16x24.
Probably takes closer to 30 minutes to do a large metal print from start to finish including attaching the hanger. Still a very short time if you compare the metal print process to the time it takes to facemount an image to acrylic.
For me anyway the larger sizes seem to be what is selling.
If you want to go bigger yet you have to match your printer width with your press size and that is the kicker.
The Maxxi press and a wide format dye sub printer to match can exceed $10,000 and even $20,000 very easily and that's the catch for going large.
We have had such interest in dye sublimation we are adding a half day workshop for dye sub metal printing and mounting.

A client from our workshop this past week holding his heat pressed landscape photo on metal.

[Mike Sellers]

Hi Dan,
I saw on ebay an Epson 9800 that was running dye sub inks. I wonder if just any printer can be used? What printer are you looking at?
Mike

[dgberg]

I am looking at Epsons 9890 and will use J-Tecks dye sub ink.
With that ink I will have to also purchase the Wasatch Rip to drive it.
All this to get away from Sawgrass inks.

You can look at Epsons 7700 or 9700 or 7890 or 9890 and get a turnkey system from Conde Systems or Coastal.
Epson also has their new CMYK dye sub printer F6070 out but they are $7,500 for the 44" model with included rip but no ink. Epsons dye sub ink for this size printer is $125.00 for 1000ml that is as good as it gets 12.5 cents per ml. Too bad it is Cmyk and not 8 color.
As you are finding out you can find used dye sub printers on Craigslist or EBay just use caution!

If I get the new one I will sell my dye sub Epson 4880 and the used Dk20s press I purchased with it.
A really good used starter setup.

[mcpix]

We've done the specialty dye sub stuff (mugs, mouse pads, etc.) for years, but I don't have a big enough printer for the chromaluxe prints. I've always wondered about how accurate the color is . With dye sub it's all about time, temperature and pressure, and even a little difference in any of those variables can shift the color. Can you get accurate, consistent color on your metal prints, or are people happy with "close"?

[dgberg]

Close is about what it is.
The yellows and oranges are the worst but not bad.
We have done more then a few with no complaints.
The reason I got the air platen press was for better pressure consistency across the entire platen.
The smaller printer and press is all a test bed before going large.
If it does not go well then I will have to rethink the larger equipment.

[Some Guy]

Close is about what it is.
The yellows and oranges are the worst but not bad.
We have done more then a few with no complaints. The reason I got the air platen press was for better pressure consistency across the entire platen for the
The smaller printer and press is all a test bed before going large.
If it does not go well then I will have to rethink the larger equipment.

I had a large metal (Chromalux?) portrait done by Bay Photo and noticed there is a bit of an issue with the skin coloring being pushed to a yellow.  Don't know if it is a CMYK thing or what happened.  Red pops well though as does the blacks, just wish skin color wasn't so yellowish.  Whites may be a bit yellow or warm overall too compared to a normal paper or canvas print, but could be due to the lamination maybe or maybe a warmer white metal base they print onto.

SG

[mcpix]

Well, as the universe sometimes works…I had 3 separate customers ask me about metal prints this week. One orders a fair amount of prints from me, so I have a few more questions.

With the equipment I currently own, I could do up to an 8x12 on the Chromaluxe. Do you think it's worth offering the smaller sizes? Unfortunately my press only goes up to 15"x15", so even if I picked up a used 4880, I'd still be limited to 11x14. I'm not sure I want to jump in and buy a new printer and a new press at this point.

I notice that there are gloss and matte panels as well as white and clear aluminum. Which do you prefer?

Do you think this market will be like canvas prints? When I first started doing canvas 3 years ago, they were fairly expensive. Now everyone offers canvas and I personally get a weekly groupon at a ridiculously low price. I still do canvas prints, but the market is pretty diluted.

[shadowblade]

Most of my sales are dye sub metal prints, which I source through Imagewizards and Bay Photo. They work especially well in large sizes (where the slight softening caused by the dye-sub process is irrelevant) and with contrasty landscapes and cityscapes.

I wouldn't use them in small sizes. The dye sub process introduces a very slight softening (so the print images need to be sharpened a little bit more than for an average glossy print) but, in absolute amount, this softening is the same whether the print size is 6x4 or 60x40. So, when printing large, it translates to no real softening at all, yet, at the smallest sizes, it can result in lost detail.

[dgberg]

Well, as the universe sometimes works…I had 3 separate customers ask me about metal prints this week. One orders a fair amount of prints from me, so I have a few more questions.

With the equipment I currently own, I could do up to an 8x12 on the Chromaluxe. Do you think it's worth offering the smaller sizes? Unfortunately my press only goes up to 15"x15", so even if I picked up a used 4880, I'd still be limited to 11x14. I'm not sure I want to jump in and buy a new printer and a new press at this point.

I notice that there are gloss and matte panels as well as white and clear aluminum. Which do you prefer?

Do you think this market will be like canvas prints? When I first started doing canvas 3 years ago, they were fairly expensive. Now everyone offers canvas and I personally get a weekly groupon at a ridiculously low price. I still do canvas prints, but the market is pretty diluted.

That is my concern as well .(Softening of the market)
My canvas sales are off based on what they were several years ago.
My idea is to offer a full range of products as well as add all of these processes to our new workshop offerings.
Yes as you know your printer has to match your press size. So going with a 17" printer and 16 x 20 press gives you only the maximum size of 16 x 20 .
Or really only 15.5 x 18.75 as you cannot get those 16x 20's metals into that size press as they are too close to the edges.

Contact me offline if you are interested in a used 16 x 20 Geo. Knight with a new overhauled board and controller.

[mcpix]

Thanks again Dan for sharing your experiences.

I was wondering if a 16x20 press would actually produce a 16x20 print. I just checked the Chromaluxe site and they make a 15 x 18.75 sheet that will fit a 16x20 press. That's good because there is a big difference in price between a 16x20 press and the press you have.

One more quick question...We previously used the small Epson desktop printers for our dye sub work and had a lot of problems with clogged heads. We used more ink cleaning the heads than we did on sublimation. I've read that the larger format Epsons (4880, 7880, 9880) don't have as many problems with clogs. Have you found this be true?

[dgberg]

I have had no problems with clogged heads.
The main problem with the 4880 is it does not recognize the Sawgrass ink carts.
They get low or runout with no warning other then bad colors.
My pet peeve is Sawgrass ink. Something like $1.00 + a ml.
The large format (42" and larger) are eligible for the J Tek inks @ .16 per ml.

You can press  that smaller Chromaluxe metal size in the 16x20 press.

[Mike Sellers]

Hey Dan,
Can you give us an update on your current dye sub situation since your last post?
Mike

[Phil Indeblanc]

Very interesting....
Wouldn't a thermal print head be more suitable for such a ink set? Maybe doesn't make a difference, but it got me to wonder. Your thoughts?

[Wayne Fox]

Very interesting....
Wouldn't a thermal print head be more suitable for such a ink set? Maybe doesn't make a difference, but it got me to wonder. Your thoughts?

dye sub inks can’t be used in thermal heads as they are designed to be heated during the transfer process from the transfer paper to the final product, and the process of heating in the printing process triggers that reaction.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Ahhh, I was wondering that. If the inks are heated and run through the system(a bit inpossible), or the inks are liquid in room temp and then the heat is activating the inks to solidify, or something like that?

I remember the Phaser or some printer I had was Dyesub, and I really liked it, but that was with the plate built in the printer :-)  It was waterproof... Like crayon, but waterproof!

[Wayne Fox]

 Not sure of the exact technology, but you print on a transfer sheet, which is then sandwiched to the final receptor such as aluminum blank. Normally the receptor has been treated or coated to enhance the process. You then apply pressure and heat - pretty hot, I think around 400 degrees (been a while since I was involved with this process, Dan or others who do it can chime in).  This “gasifies” the dye in the ink and it is absorbed by the final product.  So a thermal head would cause that reaction ... not sure what the end result would be, but probably a failed print head.

My company made everything from mugs to studio backgrounds using dye sub technology.  amazing how many things you can transfer to out there.

[bgphoto]

Wayne,

You are pretty much on target with the process. The coating on the aluminum panels and almost all dye sub products is polyester.

Ben