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Author Topic: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One  (Read 4276 times)

ErikKaffehr

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P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« on: January 12, 2014, 05:41:43 pm »

Hi,

It has been suggested that Capture One gives superior results on Phase One backs and that it may extend DR. I decided to do a small test.

I found a sunset image which is exposed for the cloud. It has some clipping in the clouds but very little. Foreground is a bit dark but still has some detail. I felt this was a good image to compare LR5 and C1.

Both images were processed to my taste. Camera white balance was used in both cases. A couple of gradient filters were used on both.

After adjusting the images I looked at of the stones in the foreground that was very dark but had still some detail. As expected it was quite noisy. I tried to find out if C1 offered benefits compared to LR5.

The images are attached.

Reducing noise in LR5 needed more work, there are more options and defaults are conservative. I felt that LR5 could achieve similar noise levels as C1, and neither was really acceptable. In this image the P45+ is it at limits.


The raw image is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Capture1_vs_LR5/Sunset/20131003-CF044228_P45-.iiq

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:48:04 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 08:19:31 pm »


What you think of this Erik?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 08:22:37 pm by T.Dascalos »
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eronald

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 10:17:30 pm »

What you think of this Erik?

awww, c'mon, be nice to the kids!

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 12:24:45 am »

Hi,

Doesn't look like a sunset to me, the clouds used to be intensely reddish orange as they are illuminated by the setting sun. But that is a question of WB and taste. I may also feel that your image is to harsh in contrast.

The issue I pointed out was the rock in the middle having a lot of readout noise, I had an actual pixels crop on that. I cannot see what that looks like in your processing as you just posted a web size image. But even at web size there is a lot of readout noise in your development. See marked areas of the screen dump. Your processing on the left.


Best regards
Erik

What you think of this Erik?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 01:25:49 am by ErikKaffehr »
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torger

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 02:47:18 am »

As far as I understand, the advantages C1 can provide is a demosaicer better adapted for backs without AA filter (less color aliasing), not sure if it's really the case though, and better color profiles (which probably matter most in studio portraits). Otherwise than that I don't know what C1 could be better than LR in terms of image quality. You can still prefer the workflow and tools in one program or the other of course.

Concerning DR there will be no difference of course. The older MF backs are indeed quite noisy if you compare to a modern Sony or Nikon DSLR. Fortunately the noise is quite nicely randomly distributed noise so it's less disturbing than it could be. The brownish pastel that noise reduction often leads to is more disturbing to me, so I rarely use noise reduction at all. In a print noise is less disturbing than on screen.

In the lighting condition shown in the example I would with my Aptus 75 use a gradient filter or make two exposures and merge.
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 03:10:19 am »

awww, c'mon, be nice to the kids!

Edmund
But…., I am!
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 03:30:31 am »

Hi,

Doesn't look like a sunset to me, the clouds used to be intensely reddish orange as they are illuminated by the setting sun. But that is a question of WB and taste. I may also feel that your image is to harsh in contrast.

The issue I pointed out was the rock in the middle having a lot of readout noise, I had an actual pixels crop on that. I cannot see what that looks like in your processing as you just posted a web size image. But even at web size there is a lot of readout noise in your development. See marked areas of the screen dump. Your processing on the left.


Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, my development was done in LR as I don't have C1P1, since my back is one that requires "phocus" or "Flexcolor". What I wanted to point out, is the halo that has been developed in your processing through LR in the leaves of the tree at the upper right of the picture. In mine, I've stopped it just as it starts to appear, but you may notice that the colour of the sky changes in between the leafs. Now look at the image you've posted processed by C1P1… there is no halo, there is no colour change ...is there? I guess there is a clear difference in usable DR… don't you think? If you try to avoid colour change or halo developing in that part, LR will end up with a dull and dark image…  Please try my suggestion I did earlier, export the same file as DNG from C1P1, with exposure held up a bit lower and slightly more HL protection, while holding the shadows when the darker parts just appear to fall into complete darkness and do the final development for your idea of the presentation in LR (it will work as a Raw file since it is in DNG form), …see what happens.
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synn

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 03:38:51 am »

Hi Erik, my development was done in LR as I don't have C1P1, since my back is one that requires "phocus" or "Flexcolor". What I wanted to point out, is the halo that has been developed in your processing through LR in the leaves of the tree at the upper right of the picture. In mine, I've stopped it just as it starts to appear, but you may notice that the colour of the sky changes in between the leafs. Now look at the image you've posted processed by C1P1… there is no halo, there is no colour change ...is there? I guess there is a clear difference in usable DR… don't you think? If you try to avoid colour change or halo developing in that part, LR will end up with a dull and dark image…  Please try my suggestion I did earlier, export the same file as DNG from C1P1, with exposure held up a bit lower and slightly more HL protection, while holding the shadows when the darker parts just appear to fall into complete darkness and do the final development for your idea of the presentation in LR (it will work as a Raw file since it is in DNG form), …see what happens.

You can D/L C1P 7 demo and use it in the DB mode to edit the P1 files without any restrictions.

Also, this is the kind of scene where I would use a grad ND on anything other than the newest CMOS cameras with a lot of shadow detail. Hell, even though my D800 has a lot of recoverable shadow detail, I use a grad on it.
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 04:14:38 am »

You can D/L C1P 7 demo and use it in the DB mode to edit the P1 files without any restrictions.

Also, this is the kind of scene where I would use a grad ND on anything other than the newest CMOS cameras with a lot of shadow detail. Hell, even though my D800 has a lot of recoverable shadow detail, I use a grad on it.
Yeah! I know…, but since I'm quite familiar with P45+ and C1P1 for processing it (although I don't own a P1 back), I'm only trying to share with Erik my findings so far… On the D800… I think if one tries to recover extreme shadows, there are co;our casts developing that are not wanted… also, the result is duller than I would like, I've come to see of DR differently than most, I think there is capture DR (where many DSLRs shine - like D800) and there is usable DR where DSLRs "crack" but MFDBs shine.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 02:44:23 pm »

Hi,

You are absolutely right about the halo effects on the treetops, I missed that totally, but I was just looking at the clouds. My focus was shadow detail. The sky was unproblematic, but I prefer to use the highlight slider for sky because it does local contrast adaption of some sort. That adoption did bite me this time. Thanks for pointing it out, learning all the time ;-)

Best regards
Erik




Hi Erik, my development was done in LR as I don't have C1P1, since my back is one that requires "phocus" or "Flexcolor". What I wanted to point out, is the halo that has been developed in your processing through LR in the leaves of the tree at the upper right of the picture. In mine, I've stopped it just as it starts to appear, but you may notice that the colour of the sky changes in between the leafs. Now look at the image you've posted processed by C1P1… there is no halo, there is no colour change ...is there? I guess there is a clear difference in usable DR… don't you think? If you try to avoid colour change or halo developing in that part, LR will end up with a dull and dark image…  Please try my suggestion I did earlier, export the same file as DNG from C1P1, with exposure held up a bit lower and slightly more HL protection, while holding the shadows when the darker parts just appear to fall into complete darkness and do the final development for your idea of the presentation in LR (it will work as a Raw file since it is in DNG form), …see what happens.
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yaya

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 05:45:34 am »

export the same file as DNG from C1P1, with exposure held up a bit lower and slightly more HL protection, while holding the shadows when the darker parts just appear to fall into complete darkness and do the final development for your idea of the presentation in LR (it will work as a Raw file since it is in DNG form), …see what happens.

If you're going the DNG route why would you want to adjust the image in Capture One? You do know that the only adjustment carried over when you export to DNG is white balance, right?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 03:37:48 pm »

Hi Anders,

As far as I understand, the advantages C1 can provide is a demosaicer better adapted for backs without AA filter (less color aliasing), not sure if it's really the case though, and better color profiles (which probably matter most in studio portraits).
Yes, I feel I have seen that. I feel C1 shows less artefacts than. Regarding the colour profiles, I don't know. Had to generate my own profiles for LR5. Colour is for me a difficult subject, to many variables. 

Quote
Concerning DR there will be no difference of course. The older MF backs are indeed quite noisy if you compare to a modern Sony or Nikon DSLR. Fortunately the noise is quite nicely randomly distributed noise so it's less disturbing than it could be. The brownish pastel that noise reduction often leads to is more disturbing to me, so I rarely use noise reduction at all. In a print noise is less disturbing than on screen.

In the lighting condition shown in the example I would with my Aptus 75 use a gradient filter or make two exposures and merge.

I essentially agree on all points, I made this test because it has been suggested that Capture One would give more DR. I was very skeptical, but felt I would make a try. I don't really have an issue with DR, but I feel that I have always been confident I can pull almost any amount of shadow detail on my Sony images, but I feel that with the P45+ I am at the limit. Did never have the need for split ND since I work with digital, even if I used some in the film days. I do HDR some times, but I have just resorted it a couple of times.

Best regards
Erik
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 05:31:54 pm »

If you're going the DNG route why would you want to adjust the image in Capture One? You do know that the only adjustment carried over when you export to DNG is white balance, right?
To get more sharpness and keep the extra DR that C1P1 provides (store it in the DNG)… Erik insists to "group" his work in LR (which is softer and has less DR latitude) … he refuses to use C1P1 for development and some here are trying to convince him otherwise, my proposition has to do with the second best solution, it's not what I would do if I was using P45+… I would do all processing using C1P1. In fact, only reason I'm not using C1P1 as you know Yair, is that my work is mainly 16X MS with my Imacon 528c which can only be done with "flexcolor"… C1P1 is in one of my computers only for the rare case I will process some ultra demanding artistic shot from my D800E and it makes lots of difference than LR… The few single shot I do with my back, is processed with "phocus".

P.S. I may have a project coming in Israel on the next couple of months, to shoot some byzantine ikons for the Orthodox church there… If I do, I'll PM you so that we may do that Credo test from last year… greetings from Regina.
P.S.2 Didn't know that adjustments are not carried over if one exports in DNG (never used C1P1 that way), he'll still benefit if he only uses C1P1 to convert to DNG and then use LR to develop the DNG won't he?


 
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Theodoros

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 05:39:40 pm »

Hi Anders,
Yes, I feel I have seen that. I feel C1 shows less artefacts than. Regarding the colour profiles, I don't know. Had to generate my own profiles for LR5. Colour is for me a difficult subject, to many variables. 

I essentially agree on all points, I made this test because it has been suggested that Capture One would give more DR. I was very skeptical, but felt I would make a try. I don't really have an issue with DR, but I feel that I have always been confident I can pull almost any amount of shadow detail on my Sony images, but I feel that with the P45+ I am at the limit. Did never have the need for split ND since I work with digital, even if I used some in the film days. I do HDR some times, but I have just resorted it a couple of times.

Best regards
Erik
Didn't say you'll get more DR Erik… I said you'll get more usable DR... this means that you'll be able to have a more realistic image with less fuzz to keep as much LL or HL info.
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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 05:39:49 pm »

I took a look at your file now, Erik. Quite honestly, it's a dud shot. There's more than 3 stops difference between the sky and the rocks. If I actually wanted to make a shot there instead of doing experiments, I would use a grad ND. Doesn't matter what camera I use; be it MFD or a D800.

Can I get a decent result from it from C1; yes. But it won't be picture perfect clean and I wouldn't expect it to be. Some things have to be done in the field as a photographer.

Just FYI, this is what's possible with the Credo and C1P7:



and



But would I *Actually* shoot my portraits 3 stops off in either direction from the metered value? Hell no.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ image processed in LR5 and Capture One
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 05:40:00 pm »

Hi,

After doing this test I am quite sure that C1 does not give any extra DR latitude. But thanks a lot for suggestions anyway. Even if I don't use C1 it is a good learning experience.

I hope you enjoy your trip to Israel.

Best regards
Erik

To get more sharpness and keep the extra DR that C1P1 provides (store it in the DNG)… Erik insists to "group" his work in LR (which is softer and has less DR latitude) … he refuses to use C1P1 for development and some here are trying to convince him otherwise, my proposition has to do with the second best solution, it's not what I would do if I was using P45+… I would do all processing using C1P1. In fact, only reason I'm not using C1P1 as you know Yair, is that my work is mainly 16X MS with my Imacon 528c which can only be done with "flexcolor"… C1P1 is in one of my computers only for the rare case I will process some ultra demanding artistic shot from my D800E and it makes lots of difference than LR… The few single shot I do with my back, is processed with "phocus".

P.S. I may have a project coming in Israel on the next couple of months, to shoot some byzantine ikons for the Orthodox church there… If I do, I'll PM you so that we may do that Credo test from last year… greetings from Regina.
P.S.2 Didn't know that adjustments are not carried over if one exports in DNG (never used C1P1 that way), he'll still benefit if he only uses C1P1 to convert to DNG and then use LR to develop the DNG won't he?


 
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