LR B&W conversion

[Greg D]

Every time I switch an image to B&W (LR4.4 BTW) the "auto mix" in the HSL/Color?B&W panel is applied, even though I do not have the auto mix box checked in my preferences.  What am I missing?  (I prefer a zero starting point - I know I can go back and zero all the colors, but would just as soon not have to.)
Thanks,
Greg

[digitaldog]

Not totally sure if this is by design, if not, reset as you desire. Then Alt/Option click on Reset to Set Default.

[Greg D]

Not sure how this changes the default....  Alt clicking on reset does zero all the colors, but the next time I go to B&W, it's back to auto-mix.  If you're saying that I could set this as my default import preference, I could if I wanted all images in B&W, but I don't.  So - still puzzled.

[digitaldog]

Not sure how this changes the default....  Alt clicking on reset does zero all the colors, but the next time I go to B&W, it's back to auto-mix.  If you're saying that I could set this as my default import preference, I could if I wanted all images in B&W, but I don't.  So - still puzzled.

On the road without LR, sorry. But what I'm suggesting is after you reset to zero, then uncheck whatever you don't want, then make this a default (set as default), it should 'stick' (auto mix off). At least in my head, without accesss to LR, it should do so but there may be something going on I'm not aware of that forces this setting on.

[wolfnowl]

I don't think that would work, because you can only have one set of default Develop settings/camera and if you set it up this way it would render all of your images to B&W.

Using LR 5.3 under Windows 8.1, and in Preferences/ Presets I have the box "Apply auto mix when first converting to black and white" unchecked.  It's the second one, under 'Apply auto tone adjustments'.  Just converted a rejected image to B&W and all of the sliders are zeroed.  In the Preferences there's an option to reset all Develop settings.  Unless you've set custom defaults as per above, maybe that would help.

Mike.

[PhotoEcosse]

Two observations:

(a) I think that what you are finding is general. I also find that LR automatically assesses the image being converted and applies what it "thinks" are suitable adjustments. A single click centres them all. As even a "zeroed" state is not particular representative of anything "normal" (just as there was no "normal" rendition of colour as monochrome with black and white film - each film type interpreted colours differently), I don't have a problem with this.

(b) I find that, although the LR5.3 B&W conversion (like earlier versions) is fairly useful, I do have far more scope for processing to my own liking when using SilverEfexPro2 from within Lightroom. If you are seriously interested in B&W, I would thoroughly recommend investing in the Nik suite.

[Greg D]

I don't think that would work, because you can only have one set of default Develop settings/camera and if you set it up this way it would render all of your images to B&W.

Using LR 5.3 under Windows 8.1, and in Preferences/ Presets I have the box "Apply auto mix when first converting to black and white" unchecked.  It's the second one, under 'Apply auto tone adjustments'.  Just converted a rejected image to B&W and all of the sliders are zeroed.  In the Preferences there's an option to reset all Develop settings.  Unless you've set custom defaults as per above, maybe that would help.

Mike.

Correct, would render everything B&W.
I do have the "Apply auto mix...." box unchecked.  However, I haven't reset the defaults - I have a set of camera-specific import settings.  It occured to me that might be the issue, but even images from other cameras behave the same, i.e. auto-mix always applied.  And I don't think resetting the defaults would fix this, because if I remember correctly auto-mix *is* the default.  Anyway - not that big a deal I guess, since one click can zero everything, and as another responder pointed out, zero, while it's a closer starting point for me, isn't necessarily "correct".

[digitaldog]

I don't think that would work, because you can only have one set of default Develop settings/camera and if you set it up this way it would render all of your images to B&W.

True indeed (a preset would make more sense).
However, upon looking at this, it appears that the sliders are automatically set to non zero by design! LR is attempting to produce 'the best' conversion on an image by image basis. And further, it appears a preset with B&W on, all sliders set to zero will do the job requested (convert but keep said sliders all at zero). Problem solved?

[Greg D]

Two observations:

(a) I think that what you are finding is general. I also find that LR automatically assesses the image being converted and applies what it "thinks" are suitable adjustments. A single click centres them all. As even a "zeroed" state is not particular representative of anything "normal" (just as there was no "normal" rendition of colour as monochrome with black and white film - each film type interpreted colours differently), I don't have a problem with this.

I don't think it really "assesses" the image, as the auto mix is the same every time (at least in my LR 4.4 it is).  But I understand your point, that zero isn't "normal" and true, one click zeroes it - I guess it just bugs me that it doesn't work as it should.

Thanks for the SilverEfex suggestion.  I can usualy get a B&W result I'm happy with on screen with LR, but printing is something else.  I do calibrate my monitor and use the appropriate (canned) profiles but still often get weird results.  Does that help any on that front?  (Sorry I guess I'm kind of hijacking my own thread here....)

[digitaldog]

I don't think it really "assesses" the image, as the auto mix is the same every time (at least in my LR 4.4 it is).

Not for me (just tested with two different images). I'm using LR 5 however.

[Greg D]

True indeed (a preset would make more sense).
However, upon looking at this, it appears that the sliders are automatically set to non zero by design! LR is attempting to produce 'the best' conversion on an image by image basis. And further, it appears a preset with B&W on, all sliders set to zero will do the job requested (convert but keep said sliders all at zero). Problem solved?

I don't think it does it on an image-by-image basis, because it appears to be the same mix every time. 
But good idea, I could make a B&W preset.  Duh.

[PhotoEcosse]

Going back to your own "hijacking" of the thread, Greg - I also never got really pure mono prints until I upgraded my printer from an Epson R1900 to an R3000. With the former, no matter how carefully I tried to cross-calibrate my monitors with the printer using ColorMunki or, alternatively, no matter how assiduously I used the correct manufacturer's profiles for papers and ink, I could not consistently get mono prints that were entirely free of any slight magenta or green cast. I don't think this had anything to do with Lightroom.

The R3000 does not use the colour inks to produce mono prints, having, instead, three "shades" of black ink. Now I get no colour casts at all. Perversely, I get the best results when using the bog-standard Epson "Advanced B&W" profile, rather than fannying about with custom profiles, and telling Lightroom to allow the printer to manage the printing.

[Schewe]

The R3000 does not use the colour inks to produce mono prints, having, instead, three "shades" of black ink.

Actually, that's not exactly true...in order to get a "neutral" B&W print, the Advanced B&W mode must use some cyan/magenta ink in order to cool down the rather warm carbon pigment of the Epson black inks...

[Greg D]

Not for me (just tested with two different images). I'm using LR 5 however.

I stand corrected.  They are different.  I just happened to look at two images (pretty similar ones) that had exactly the same auto mix, and several others that were very nearly the same - close enough that they appeared the same at a glance.

[sniper]

I'm confused, whats the point of the option to turn it off if it applies an auto anyway?

[Greg D]

Going back to your own "hijacking" of the thread, Greg - I also never got really pure mono prints until I upgraded my printer from an Epson R1900 to an R3000. With the former, no matter how carefully I tried to cross-calibrate my monitors with the printer using ColorMunki or, alternatively, no matter how assiduously I used the correct manufacturer's profiles for papers and ink, I could not consistently get mono prints that were entirely free of any slight magenta or green cast. I don't think this had anything to do with Lightroom.

The R3000 does not use the colour inks to produce mono prints, having, instead, three "shades" of black ink. Now I get no colour casts at all. Perversely, I get the best results when using the bog-standard Epson "Advanced B&W" profile, rather than fannying about with custom profiles, and telling Lightroom to allow the printer to manage the printing.

Yes, I have a friend with a 3880 who gets good B&W with little fuss.  So next printer.......

[Greg D]

I'm confused, whats the point of the option to turn it off if it applies an auto anyway?

Me, too - that was my point.  Still don't know, but the workaround's easy enough.

[john beardsworth]

Apart from hitting the Auto button, there are two possible ways to get an auto mix applied:

1. In Preferences, Presets, you have ticked the box to apply an auto mix.
2. You have created a custom default for the camera by Alt/Option clicking the Reset button in Develop when the B&W iders were set at their auto positions.

As you've said 1 doesn't apply, it must be the second option. So Alt/Option click Develop's Reset button and choose Restore Adobe's Default.

John

[Greg D]

Apart from hitting the Auto button, there are two possible ways to get an auto mix applied:

1. In Preferences, Presets, you have ticked the box to apply an auto mix.
2. You have created a custom default for the camera by Alt/Option clicking the Reset button in Develop when the B&W iders were set at their auto positions.

As you've said 1 doesn't apply, it must be the second option. So Alt/Option click Develop's Reset button and choose Restore Adobe's Default.

John

Yes, that was my mistake - I didn't realize the "Preferences" settings became of part of the custom camera defaults, so of course resetting default preferences had no impact on already imported images.
Thanks!