New MF platform from Leica or Sinar makes sense.

[eronald]

Sooner or later there will be an MF cottage industry. After the CMOS sensors drop, a camera will essentially be a box with a lens mount for a (central shutter) lens, no shutter, no mirror, no finder, no focus module, no fuss. When that day comes, Sinar and Alpa will be front runners.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

No, the Leica S/S2 sensor is by Kodak, not Dalsa. It is a close brother of the 40MP Kodak CCD in the Pentax 645D and Hasselblad HxD-40.

Ray

Good point… now I've done the calculation works out better than it did with the Dalsa sensor. Thanks.

[Theodoros]

My opinion is that what caused the failure of the M was its "focal plane only" shutter approach, which was made worst by the low sync speed… Another issue was with the size of the camera. Never the less, if Sinar-m was to have LS compatibility with LS lenses (like Leica S does) it would be much more successful… The best thing (IMO) with Sinar-m was the fact that it could add a focal plane shutter and thus MS compatibility on to a view camera… Many users miss this now (having their back attached on to a view camera with only a focal plane shutter in front of the back)… just my 2 cents.

[Ken R]

Sooner or later there will be an MF cottage industry. After the CMOS sensors drop, a camera will essentially be a box with a lens mount for a (central shutter) lens, no shutter, no mirror, no finder, no focus module, no fuss. When that day comes, Sinar and Alpa will be front runners.

Edmund

Yes, once Medium Format Digital Backs have high quality live view then its just the lens with central shutter and the lens mount / frame + the cables / contacts for communication. One could then just use the rear screen and / or a high quality EVF for composing and focusing. Almost endless configurations are possible. Ideally one would not even need a mechanical shutter. Just like digital cinema cameras. The problem would be the flash sync speed.

[Theodoros]

Yes, once Medium Format Digital Backs have high quality live view then its just the lens with central shutter and the lens mount / frame + the cables / contacts for communication. One could then just use the rear screen and / or a high quality EVF for composing and focusing. Almost endless configurations are possible. Ideally one would not even need a mechanical shutter. Just like digital cinema cameras. The problem would be the flash sync speed.

Leaf shutter lenses only, mean that all other lenses will be thrown away, this will restrict such a camera's appreciation. Another maker will come, build the same, but add a focal plane in front of the sensor and take the market… More than that, what it will be with mechanical leaf shutters and what with the different CPU interface with electronic leaf shutters? Leica works on an "open" lens compatibility with the S… no body else does.

[bcooter]

Leaf shutter lenses only, mean that all other lenses will be thrown away, this will restrict such a camera's appreciation. Another maker will come, build the same, but add a focal plane in front of the sensor and take the market… More than that, what it will be with mechanical leaf shutters and what with the different CPU interface with electronic leaf shutters? Leica works on an "open" lens compatibility with the S… no body else does.

T.Dascalos,

Be careful.  If you praise leica around here they'll call you a wall street guy or a dentist.

IMO

BC

[eronald]

T.Dascalos,

Be careful.  If you praise leica around here they'll call you a wall street guy or a dentist.

IMO

BC

Just call him a dealer already - Mephisto! there is a soul here waiting for you to claim!

Edmund

[Theodoros]

T.Dascalos,

Be careful.  If you praise leica around here they'll call you a wall street guy or a dentist.

IMO

BC

LOL… who cares?   I'm not either, I do some "street" but I use a Nikon DSLR with primes. ...And I have always hated the M system! 

[Theodoros]

Just call him a dealer already - Mephisto! there is a soul here waiting for you to claim!

Edmund

Truth is I'd love to be a dealer, ...would have added an S2 with Contax adapter to my C645 already! Anybody for my old R8? Sold my 28, 50 & 90 and I have the body left… Only Leica gear I ever had. If any one is interested, please PM me, it's in great condition! 

[telyt]

Anybody for my old R8?

Tempting... my backup DMR could use a functioning body

[Theodoros]

Tempting... my backup DMR could use a functioning body

Looked for a PM… still nothing! 

[telyt]

Looked for a PM… still nothing! 

PM sent

[paulmoorestudio]

for me the S2 is the epitome of a handheld camera..at least from the long list of what I have shot with. A real joy to shoot. Teaming up with sinar for a technical camera solution is really good for them and those who want some added diversity when shooting locked down.  They keep making the right moves and do it with extreme skill and taste.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would say that I see two interesting points with the CMOSIS design.

One is that it is said to be better suited to Leica M lenses because it has shallower wells than competing designs.

The second is that I presume that Leica own the design, so they would be able to reuse it in other models.

Other than that I don't disagree.


Best regards
Erik

The idea of thee being a great advantage for a camera company to own its sensor design resources seems over-rated. Remember when people touted that as an advantage Canon had over Nikon? Now instead Nikon and Olympus seem to benefit from being able to move between multiple sensor design shops and fabs, based on who currently offers the best technology for each particular product.

This is even more so in the case of Leica and the MF makers, which need so few sensors and designs that it makes more economic sense to outsource sensor design to companies that get economies of scale from serving other customers too.


P. S. Note that CMOSIS and Aptina do not make sensors, they only design them (perhaps with input from important customers like Nikon that have significant sensor know-how of their own), with fabrication outsourced to yet another company.

[eronald]

Hi,

I would say that I see two interesting points with the CMOSIS design.

One is that it is said to be better suited to Leica M lenses because it has shallower wells than competing designs.

The second is that I presume that Leica own the design, so they would be able to reuse it in other models.

Other than that I don't disagree.


Best regards
Erik

Now you say it -

Yes, they could do a with-mirror CMOS S based on those cells, with AF handled by the current in-camera phase-contrast path.
The interesting question is whether that design really stitches well in 2D, and I suspect this was part of the original spec.
For main-sensor AF they'd need a serious redesign. I'd bet they are already working on that as AF is a natural extension of the M.
If Leica were a Japanese company, I'd expect a CMOS S at Photokina, as it stands, I think some new FrankenLeica based on a revision of the CMOSIS design will appear, maybe an AF compact, with an update to the S in a year or so.

Frankly, I wish Leica would just get together with Nokia and make a 40 or 60MP phone with interchangeable lenses or a decent zoom.  More useful to more people than the S.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

I very much doubt that Leica will consider an MF CMOS sensor for now… Sinar has always being a company that believes in multishot (their top in the line backs have always being with such capability) and their current line is MS only. All MS backs up to now are CCD, more than that all MFD is CCD... I'm not sure either if a sensor that has A/D convetion "build in" can do MS… I think that the priority for Leica with respect to Sinar currently, will be to "bridge" the two lines with repect to each other, clearly the problem arising is "what MF will suit best a Sinar MFDB customer?" since Leica S2 is a DSLR that doesn't have interchangeable image area, nor it can be (being a DSLR) as effective as an MFDB when used on a Sinar View or Tech camera. Surely they didn't invest without having all the above in mind… They have considered the problem and they have planned for the solution. It shouldn't be long before we see an action for the matter...

[ondebanks]

more than that all MFD is CCD...

Except the Leaf C-MOST and Valeo 6, which were CMOS backs for MF cameras...albeit in 35mm sensor format.

I'm not sure either if a sensor that has A/D convetion "build in" can do MS…

It can. Multishot is merely physical shifting the sensor between sequential exposures, and splicing them together in firmware. That works the same whether the sensor is CCD or CMOS. It might actually work slightly more reliably with CMOS, because the faster readout lowers the risk of movement/vibration problems intervening.

Ray

[BJL]

I would say that I see two interesting points with the CMOSIS design.
...
The second is that I presume that Leica own the design, so they would be able to reuse it in other models.

That can be a good reason for having active partnerships with sensor design company and retaining some rights in the joint projects, rather than just buying whatever sensors the maker has in its catalog. This seems to be what Nikon sometimes does in its sensor design partnership with Sony, getting some input into the designs and a period of exclusivity on sensor designs like that of the D800/A7R. In contrast, Pentax seems to have to settle for the sensor models than Sony (and Nikon?) are willing to let them have, and usually gets them somewhat later.

[Theodoros]

Except the Leaf C-MOST and Valeo 6, which were CMOS backs for MF cameras...albeit in 35mm sensor format.

It can. Multishot is merely physical shifting the sensor between sequential exposures, and splicing them together in firmware. That works the same whether the sensor is CCD or CMOS. It might actually work slightly more reliably with CMOS, because the faster readout lowers the risk of movement/vibration problems intervening.

Ray

I know MS well it is in my daily routine… What I doubt is not the mechanical part (surely a piezoelectric crystal can do the shift with either sensors), but whether a sensor with build-in A/D conversion (like Cmos) are can provide "true colour" information to the (exterior) software, the way it happens with CCD (where A/D conversion happens outside the sensor)… In other words, I don't know if the dedicated program to do MS (flexcolor in my case) takes the info it uses after the transistors or after A/D conversion or from the two combined… Surely, if it can be done with Cmos, it will need a new program that won't be compatible with the ones that the makers already have. This all, is only a suspicion I have which I'm not sure about… If one (or you) can be sure on the matter as to enlighten us, it is more than welcome and will be highly appreciated.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Both CCD and CMOS just give an electronic signal, which in the end is interpreted as a voltage fed to an ADC. So CMOS or CCD has nothing to do with color, the same applies to multishot.

There are two advantages of CMOS over present day CCD devices, the first advantage is lower readout noise, which means that the sensor can go further int darks without producing excessive salt and pepper type noise. The other advantage of CMOS over CCD is continous readout. The latter one is usable for live view.

Modern sensors have very good resolution weather CCD or CMOS, so they need very exact focusing. Technical cameras today have a lot of odd technology for focusing, like extemely long calibrated helicoids that can be used with laser distance meters. Having live view on an MFDB would be very helpful in achieving exact focus with focus peaking and actual pixels view. Live view also would integrate well in tethered shooting situations.

Those are the main reasons I think MF makers will switch to CMOS.

Best regards
Erik

I know MS well it is in my daily routine… What I doubt is not the mechanical part (surely a piezoelectric crystal can do the shift with either sensors), but whether a sensor with build-in A/D conversion (like Cmos) are can provide "true colour" information to the (exterior) software, the way it happens with CCD (where A/D conversion happens outside the sensor)… In other words, I don't know if the dedicated program to do MS (flexcolor in my case) takes the info it uses after the transistors or after A/D conversion or from the two combined… Surely, if it can be done with Cmos, it will need a new program that won't be compatible with the ones that the makers already have. This all, is only a suspicion I have which I'm not sure about… If one (or you) can be sure on the matter as to enlighten us, it is more than welcome and will be highly appreciated.