New MF platform from Leica or Sinar makes sense.

[Theodoros]

With Sinar being integrated into the Leitz group, they can now offer solutions for all large sensor photography, but surely there is a gap that needs to be full filed to connect the two lines as they now exist, Sinar now only makes tethered backs (all MS capable) and only view cameras. Leica makes a large sensor integrated DSLR which can't have its back removed. The first move for integration was another version of Sinar's P2/P3/PDslr camera, that can take a Leica S (more than Canon or Nikon Dslrs) on its "rear standard" to be used instead of an MFDB. But surely this is a compromise for view camera users.
If one buys a Sinar MFDB there is no MF camera platform on either firms to use it on, OTOH leica's S-mount looks that has being designed having adapters in mind, where other MF camera users (Hasselblad-H & Contax 645 currently-more to be expected),  can use their lenses fully integrated of their functioning on a Leica-S. I believe it makes sense if Leica (or Sinar), will come up with a new MF camera platform with interchangeable back capabilities, that would be able to take Sinarbacks on it and a new lens line to support it, that would (via an adapter) be able to be used on the Leica-S as well. It also makes sense if Sinar will come back to re-make self contained versions of their digital backs for that new platform (now they only do tethered) as they used to.
In the mean time, it's great news for Contax645 users, their system can play that same "role" to "bridge" the gap between Sinar and Leica, their lenses are fully compatible with Leica-S, and their MFDBs can be fitted on a Sinar view camera for work with movements… Heck! It even makes sense if Leica will invest to resurrect C645 instead of investing on a new platform now they have the adapter and Contax has a wide base of good lenses spread all over the world.

[Brian Hirschfeld]

All very good points, and a logical explanation of the decision.

[eronald]

All very good points, and a logical explanation of the decision.

Indeed. We all want a Rollei Hy6 6x6 sturdy body, sensor rotation, Hasselblad True Focus AF, with Phase software and tethering, Leica lenses, Red-grade 4K video or at least Canon-quality liveview, Canon Wifi iPad remote use, Canon CPS service with loaner, Doug Peterson 24 hour hotline, and Nikon 36MP prices. Does the back/sensor maker matter? No, everybody knows how to do that now.

At least that makes it clear what we expect from Sinar.

Edmund

[synn]

Indeed. We all want a Rollei Hy6 6x6 sturdy body, sensor rotation, Hasselblad True Focus AF, with Phase software and tethering, Leica lenses, Red-grade 4K video or at least Canon-quality liveview, Canon Wifi iPad remote use, Canon CPS service with loaner, Doug Peterson 24 hour hotline, and Nikon 36MP prices. Does the back/sensor maker matter? No, everybody knows how to do that now.

At least that makes it clear what we expect from Sinar.

Edmund

Add Pentax weather sealing + Sony DR and you have my vote!

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Synn makes a good point, on weather proofing.

I guess what we need to wait for is the Nikon 36MP price. My guess is that Leica will 'make' it's own sensor, based on the design used in the Leica M(240).

Doug Petersn would be nice for sure, but I don't think he is Leica. Steve Hendrix would do just fine :-)

Best regards
Erik

Indeed. We all want a Rollei Hy6 6x6 sturdy body, sensor rotation, Hasselblad True Focus AF, with Phase software and tethering, Leica lenses, Red-grade 4K video or at least Canon-quality liveview, Canon Wifi iPad remote use, Canon CPS service with loaner, Doug Peterson 24 hour hotline, and Nikon 36MP prices. Does the back/sensor maker matter? No, everybody knows how to do that now.

At least that makes it clear what we expect from Sinar.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

Indeed. We all want a Rollei Hy6 6x6 sturdy body, sensor rotation, Hasselblad True Focus AF, with Phase software and tethering, Leica lenses, Red-grade 4K video or at least Canon-quality liveview, Canon Wifi iPad remote use, Canon CPS service with loaner, Doug Peterson 24 hour hotline, and Nikon 36MP prices. Does the back/sensor maker matter? No, everybody knows how to do that now.

At least that makes it clear what we expect from Sinar.

Edmund

Most possible IMO, is if they create a new platform and add a dedicated adapter for HY6 and 6xxx series lens to be fully compatible on the S-cameras. This would both add them with the necessary platform to "bridge" the two lines (of Leica and Sinar as they exist now) and allow people to use their own "bridge platforms" (as they now can do if they have Contax), to do the same… Never the less, such a move (inducing a "connecting" platform between Leica-S and Sinar) would bring competition "under serious pressure"  .

[JV]

My guess is that Leica will 'make' it's own sensor, based on the design used in the Leica M(240).

According to rumors Leica would be working on a new sensor with Truesense (ex-Kodak).

Please also note that in the meanwhile CMOSIS (the manufacturer of the M Type 240 sensor) has been acquired by a an investment company called TA Associates.

If CMOSIS was truly of strategic importance to Leica my guess is that they probably would have to tried to acquire CMOSIS themselves.

[ErikKaffehr]

Thanks,

that makes some sense.

Best regards
Erik

According to rumors Leica would be working on a new sensor with Truesense (ex-Kodak).

Please also note that in the meanwhile CMOSIS (the manufacturer of the M Type 240 sensor) has been acquired by a an investment company called TA Associates.

If CMOSIS was truly of strategic importance to Leica my guess is that they probably would have to tried to acquire CMOSIS themselves.

[eronald]

Broadcom has gobbled up Renesas. A lot of change in the sensor field.

My take is that whatever happens we will get underperforming overpriced luxury goods, and Doug and Steve will sell a thousand IQ280/Alpa combos to the Getty, move to the Canary islands, open a beachhouse bar and mail us iPhone pix of Rob guzzling their Daquiris surrounded by the local hotties  and James playing the saxophone

Edmund

[Theodoros]

According to rumors Leica would be working on a new sensor with Truesense (ex-Kodak).

Please also note that in the meanwhile CMOSIS (the manufacturer of the M Type 240 sensor) has been acquired by a an investment company called TA Associates.

If CMOSIS was truly of strategic importance to Leica my guess is that they probably would have to tried to acquire CMOSIS themselves.

Hi Joris,
I don't think that any camera maker would be interested on investing in sensor technology as of today, the way I see it, imaging companies are better off to concentrate on the mechanical design part and the integration of sensors into their systems than to work on imaging surfaces… Much like as to what was happening in the film days, where camera companies where independent than film makers. An imaging camera maker, may decide to use Cmosis on one day, or Dalsa or Sony or Aptina the other day, depending on what suits better their strategy, or they can design a sensor themselves and get a sensor maker to construct it for them (like Nikon does with their 16.2mp FF sensor that is used on the D4 and Df). Acquiring a sensor construction company from a maker, could possibly mean that the competition would reject that same sensor maker as possible choice for their own imaging areas, or that the sensor maker would restrict production and design to only serve the brother company. Usually, sensor makers make sensors for far more appliances  than to be used on an imaging camera. Never the less , I don't see how could Dalsa (if it would be acquired by P1 or other for example) would continue to have Leica (I believe the 45x30mm S-sensor is a different size version of the P65+ and the same happens with Sinar's 48x36mm 48mp sensor for the eVolution 86H MFDB) as a customer.

[BJL]

Please also note that in the meanwhile CMOSIS (the manufacturer of the M Type 240 sensor) has been acquired by a an investment company called TA Associates.

If CMOSIS was truly of strategic importance to Leica my guess is that they probably would have to tried to acquire CMOSIS themselves.

The idea of thee being a great advantage for a camera company to own its sensor design resources seems over-rated. Remember when people touted that as an advantage Canon had over Nikon? Now instead Nikon and Olympus seem to benefit from being able to move between multiple sensor design shops and fabs, based on who currently offers the best technology for each particular product.

This is even more so in the case of Leica and the MF makers, which need so few sensors and designs that it makes more economic sense to outsource sensor design to companies that get economies of scale from serving other customers too.


P. S. Note that CMOSIS and Aptina do not make sensors, they only design them (perhaps with input from important customers like Nikon that have significant sensor know-how of their own), with fabrication outsourced to yet another company.

[jduncan]

Indeed. We all want a Rollei Hy6 6x6 sturdy body, sensor rotation, Hasselblad True Focus AF, with Phase software and tethering, Leica lenses, Red-grade 4K video or at least Canon-quality liveview, Canon Wifi iPad remote use, Canon CPS service with loaner, Doug Peterson 24 hour hotline, and Nikon 36MP prices. Does the back/sensor maker matter? No, everybody knows how to do that now.

At least that makes it clear what we expect from Sinar.

Edmund

You forgot Nikon dynamic range and high iso, Sigma foveon class technology Sony A7 weight (but not size), 250M pixels native,   Hasselblad (1 gpigapixel multishot)   (filming), 60fps full size, Phase one Sensor Plus, 100m underwater operation and  8 days battery I am not paying for it, And I mean no more than  4K dollars with normal lens

Best regards,
J. Duncan

[EricWHiss]

If this is turning into a wish list, then may I add a 6x6 sensor to go on my Hy6?

[Theodoros]

If this is turning into a wish list, then may I add a 6x6 sensor to go on my Hy6?

What about Mamyia RZ and GX680 users? …they'll complain if you get yours done! Anyway (seriously now), I don't think it would be wise for Sinar to possibly come up with a new back and leave HY6 or 6xxx users unsupported, they have a great base there, nor I think that there won't be a future for those cameras lenses.

[ondebanks]

I don't see how could Dalsa (if it would be acquired by P1 or other for example) would continue to have Leica (I believe the 45x30mm S-sensor is a different size version of the P65+ and the same happens with Sinar's 48x36mm 48mp sensor for the eVolution 86H MFDB) as a customer.

No, the Leica S/S2 sensor is by Kodak, not Dalsa. It is a close brother of the 40MP Kodak CCD in the Pentax 645D and Hasselblad HxD-40.

Ray

[ondebanks]

Add Pentax weather sealing + Sony DR and you have my vote!

And don't forget a flange distance short enough to mount unique M645 lenses like the 24/4 ULD fisheye and the APO telephotos!

Ray

[ondebanks]

Anyway (seriously now), I don't think it would be wise for Sinar to possibly come up with a new back and leave HY6 or 6xxx users unsupported, they have a great base there, nor I think that there won't be a future for those cameras lenses.

Indeed. Sinar have put their name on only two MFD SLR cameras: their own Sinar M (ambitious design but commercial failure) and the Hy6 partnership. It would rile if they got back into MFD cameras and didn't support the Hy6/Rollei ecosystem that they themselves helped to create!

Ray

[Ken R]

Indeed. Sinar have put their name on only two MFD SLR cameras: their own Sinar M (ambitious design but commercial failure) and the Hy6 partnership. It would rile if they got back into MFD cameras and didn't support the Hy6/Rollei ecosystem that they themselves helped to create!

Ray

When I first saw the Sinar M I thought it was a great concept. I think it was ahead of its time a bit. Maybe with better pricing / marketing / availability it would have built up a large enough customer base for Sinar to develop it further.

[ondebanks]

When I first saw the Sinar M I thought it was a great concept. I think it was ahead of its time a bit. Maybe with better pricing / marketing / availability it would have built up a large enough customer base for Sinar to develop it further.

Apart from the pricing / marketing / availability that you correctly draw attention to, I think another problem was that thing that Hasselblad is always criticised for - it was a "closed system". The only DBs that the M body could mount were Sinarbacks, and the back interface flange was specifically M - yet another new back interface "standard" in a world already overcrowded with back interfaces.

But nevertheless I have massive respect for any camera that can do this:

Medium format digital WITH fast Nikon lenses AND a waist level reflex finder! YOWZA!!
That's not doable with anything currently on the market - neither the Hartblei nor Alpa FPS offer reflex viewing.

Ray

[Ken R]

Apart from the pricing / marketing / availability that you correctly draw attention to, I think another problem was that thing that Hasselblad is always criticised for - it was a "closed system". The only DBs that the M body could mount were Sinarbacks, and the back interface flange was specifically M - yet another new back interface "standard" in a world already overcrowded with back interfaces.

But nevertheless I have massive respect for any camera that can do this:

Medium format digital WITH fast Nikon lenses AND a waist level reflex finder! YOWZA!!
That's not doable with anything currently on the market - neither the Hartblei nor Alpa FPS offer reflex viewing.

Ray

Forgot about that it is a closed system! Then add that to the list It would be awesome if it would work with many other lenses and backs. In concept it seems like a great open system. Almost everything is removable.