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Author Topic: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work  (Read 14444 times)

Michael Erlewine

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Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« on: January 01, 2014, 03:28:09 am »

This is not a review, but just some comments on the new Sony a7r for close-up work. Keep in mind that for my work with close-up and macro photography (and stacking focus) I need a somewhat robust camera. This is not that.

I know that many of you will make this camera work for you and that my view is a case of the glass half-empty, rather than half-full. I am probably on the wrong side of history, but here are my thoughts.

First, I do want to thank Sony for doing what neither Nikon or Canon has bothered to do, which is give us a peek at the future, even though it pains me to say that the Sony a7r is not quite up to the standards I need. I wish it were!

In the past I have avoided EVFs, but I love this EVF and the ability to magnify focus and actually SEE what I am focusing on. This is definitely better than the viewfinder on my Nikon D800E. No doubt. However, if I am honest with myself, the fact of the adapter (Novoflex) for my Nikon mount lenses, coupled with something like the new Zeiss Otus 55mm lens, makes the whole contraption unstable and very difficult for my work.

The body of the a7r is quite small for the heavy lenses I tend to use, so the whole thing trembles like a leaf on a tree from the slightest vibration, and I am using the Swiss Arca Cube on a strong RRS tripod. In addition, I have the Sony a7r mounted on a RSS MPR-CL II Rail (a nodal slide), which is part of their panorama kit. This allows me to mount the camera and the new Zeiss Otus f/1.4 APO using the Novoflex adapter and support the end of the lens (the lens barrel does not move) on the rail with a wedge of foam to help dampen vibrations.

Even so, stabilizing such a setup it is a major problem. And of course there is the shutter-shake problem that Lloyd Chambers correctly pointed out. It is a shaky business with this camera, which is just what I don't need for fine close-up work like stacking focus.

In other words, the a7r is possibly useable for my work, but barely, and I have to ask myself. Shouldn't I expect a camera to work for me, instead of vice-versa, my having to struggle to make a camera like the a7r useable for the kind of photography I do.  Sure, I can patch something together to make the a7r work, but why bother? This is what is called the bleeding edge and I have been there, done that.

Until now, I have gone along with the drift that cameras will get smaller and better, but with the a7r I realize that I need a strong and large body just to support the great lenses I like to use. Simple physics intervenes and weight matters too.

The overriding best feature of the a7r (for me) is the EVF and the ability to magnify focus and clearly see where things are at, both before and after a shot. Single shots with the Nikon D800E viewfinder are harder to see, but for focus stacking it does not really matter, since exact focus is not required because that is what we are creating, so it is not so important where we start focusing with a stack. Exact focus comes into play more with the single-shot scenario, and this is where the a7r shines.

The two new cameras that were interesting enough for me to buy and try recently are the a7r and the Sigma Merrill DP3. Both are fascinating, but fall short of prime time IMO. All of these "almost" great camera are interesting glimpses at the future, and I hope Nikon and Canon are watching since (as I see it) both of those companies have been AWOL from the future for some time now.

And how Sony managed to forgot the need for an electronic first-curtain shutter for those of us who are used to Mirror UP is beyond me. What were they thinking? The shutter shake of the a7r makes it very difficult to use. They tell me that perhaps there can be a firmware fix for this shutter problem, but even if that happens, this camera remains but a glimpse at what is sure to come, like these great features in a pro-body.

What I really want is a Nikon pro body, but with the Sony EVF and LCD, and while we are at it, please throw in a Foveon sensor or several removable sensors. Might as well make it 54 MP or higher too.

So my guess is that I am returning the Sony A7r, because in my work process is king, and there is too much jury-rigging required with this camera to make if function well. Yes, I could make it work, but I would rather wait until it is done right. However, I really want a pristine EVF now that I have played with the a7r!

I know. Cameras are getting smaller and lighter and the huge DSLRs are being looked at as dinosaurs, but this little wake-up call for me, using the Sony a74, the Sigma Merril DP3, and the Nikon V1, remind me that what I really want is a solid camera body not just something I can hold in the palm of my hand.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2014, 03:54:32 am »

Hi,

That part is easily explained. They reuse the sensor chip that has been used in the D800/D800E for well over a year and it does not have an electronic first curtain. Would they have a 36 MP chip with electronic first curtain, they would have used it. Would they had a 36 MP chip with phase detection AF they would have used it. Things take time to develop.

The A7 designation mean that it is not a pro camera, top of the line at Minolta/Sony has one or more 9-s is the name, think Dynax 9, Alpha 900 and Alpha 99 SLT. A lot of stuff is coming from Sony this year.

Best regards
Erik



And how Sony managed to forgot the need for an electronic first-curtain shutter for those of us who are used to Mirror UP is beyond me. What were they thinking? The shutter shake of the a7r makes it very difficult to use. They tell me that perhaps there can be a firmware fix for this shutter problem, but even if that happens, this camera remains but a glimpse at what is sure to come, like these great features in a pro-body.


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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2014, 04:04:45 am »

I agree. This coming year should bring more of what I am looking for in terms of some of these features in a more robust form, i.e. pro body. Right now we are just on the verge, the bleeding-edge of what hopefully will come in spring.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2014, 04:33:15 am »

Hi,

I don't know about what is coming. There is talk about a hybrid mount body.

In the long term there is a solid rumor about a 54 MP sensor with electronic shutter, that would be able to completely eliminate vibration, but it is in the 2014/2015 time frame and said to be extremely expensive in manufacture.

Sony is said to cooperate with Hasselblad on a sensor, that could be interesting.

Best regards
Erik

I agree. This coming year should bring more of what I am looking for in terms of some of these features in a more robust form, i.e. pro body. Right now we are just on the verge, the bleeding-edge of what hopefully will come in spring.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2014, 05:19:22 am »

This coming year should bring more of what I am looking for in terms of some of these features in a more robust form, i.e. pro body. Right now we are just on the verge, the bleeding-edge of what hopefully will come in spring.

Hi Michael,

This year is another Photokina year (Cologne, Sept. 16-21, 2014), so I expect really significant developments (if any) to be announced around August, not much earlier. It will be interesting to see whether Canon decided to expand their high end product portfolio in the direction of stills, or continue with emphasis on video.

Cheers,
Bart
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allegretto

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2014, 06:43:46 pm »

we are in the early years of a paradigm shift. The change from film to digital has only begun to change the equipment. Thus as is often the case we see the kiwi bird designs come and go frequently as manufacturers strive not only to provide equipment that works, but to find what design characteristics thrive with the consumers. Engineering flaws and limitations of transitional designs get ironed out over time

And as is often the case, design constraints eventuate in near-comedic juxtapositions. Right now probably the most problematic is lens design. It takes a lot of heavy glass to get the detail that photographers want/need to bring out the best that's available from these wonderful and soon-to-be greater designs. This runs smack into the miniaturization of bodies thus usability, and certainly esthetics suffer. An A7 of either flavor, adorned with the obligatory adapter and a top-notch lens is no easy handful and just forget about balance or autofocus.

In a few years, perhaps breakthroughs in lens design will make us giggle at some of the products we endure today. Then again, maybe the infinite focus concept, where light is simply gathered and focus is hashed out in post depending on what you want out of an image will make for more compact, useable camera design. And let's face it a whole couple generations now appear to accept smart phone images as "good enough" and for most it simply won't matter that something much better is available. These days it seems as though being able to "share" otherwise useless images of whatever moves one's neural connections is at least as important as quality of the image itself. maybe the "demanding" photographer is a dying breed altogether.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2014, 08:14:23 pm »

Great post. For my two cents, as long as photographers produce photos for themselves (and not just for others or profit), there will be a demand for the high-end cameras and lenses we are used to. If there are breakthroughs in lens design, perhaps both worlds will survive.

This new Zeiss Otus APO is just a window into the future for me, a place I have been looking forward to for a long time. Sorry it is so expensive, but  for my work it is worth every penny.
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allegretto

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2014, 09:36:17 pm »

Great post. For my two cents, as long as photographers produce photos for themselves (and not just for others or profit), there will be a demand for the high-end cameras and lenses we are used to. If there are breakthroughs in lens design, perhaps both worlds will survive.

This new Zeiss Otus APO is just a window into the future for me, a place I have been looking forward to for a long time. Sorry it is so expensive, but  for my work it is worth every penny.

have had an Otus on B&H now for several months. I consider you one of the lucky ones....
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2014, 03:10:16 am »

I ordered my copy form B&H as soon as they had it up on their site. With this kind of lens, my motto is "order early, order often."

I read one post, and I hope it is not true, that Zeiss assembles only five of the new Otus 55mm APO lenses a day. I find that hard to believe with the demand.

The Zeiss 135mm APO, which I also have, is totally incredible also, as this original and crop of some Japanese beetles show. Also this flower is from the 135mm APO.
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allegretto

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2014, 07:42:52 am »

Beautiful!

Japanese beetles makin' bacon. Nature and life cannot be denied

Yes, word is that the 135 is gonzo as well. Funny that I rarely if ever use that length. Have a Canon f2.0 that is no slouch, but not a Zeiss either.  However it appears that that's about to change. Been noodling around the ice skating rink with my 9 yo taking lessons and it appears that 135 is the perfect length for the rinks dimensions.

Cheers...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:20:53 pm by allegretto »
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ripgriffith

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 03:08:44 am »


The body of the a7r is quite small for the heavy lenses I tend to use, so the whole thing trembles like a leaf on a tree from the slightest vibration, and I am using the Swiss Arca Cube on a strong RRS tripod. In addition, I have the Sony a7r mounted on a RSS MPR-CL II Rail (a nodal slide), which is part of their panorama kit. This allows me to mount the camera and the new Zeiss Otus f/1.4 APO using the Novoflex adapter and support the end of the lens (the lens barrel does not move) on the rail with a wedge of foam to help dampen vibrations....

I know. Cameras are getting smaller and lighter and the huge DSLRs are being looked at as dinosaurs, but this little wake-up call for me, using the Sony a74, the Sigma Merril DP3, and the Nikon V1, remind me that what I really want is a solid camera body not just something I can hold in the palm of my hand.

Given the physics of a full-frame high-quality lens, miniaturization to any great extent seems to be very far in the future, so perhaps one approach to the dilemma of big lens-tiny camera is in adding the tripod mount, fixed or adjustable, to the barrel of the lens, as is done with many telephoto designs.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 08:32:19 am »

Good idea, but the kind of lenses you and I probably want to use won't do that unless there is a mass rush to demand it.

I am still struggling with the a7r on the bleeding edge. Of course, I love that EVF and magnification assist, but I ought to know by now that I should just wait and let the technology come to me rather than me go out to meet and and try to make it work, when it really doesn't. I am sure that for some, it will be fun. But by this time I care more about process and stability than I do about innovation. Yet, here I am will the a7r and I just returned the Sigma Merril DP3 as another example of something I like that is not ripe.
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BJL

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 02:05:45 pm »

... perhaps one approach to the dilemma of big lens-tiny camera is in adding the tripod mount, fixed or adjustable, to the barrel of the lens, as is done with many telephoto designs.
Does anyone make adaptors for using SLR lenses on mirrorless bodies with a tripod mount on the adaptor?  That might help to improve the balance for moderately heavy lenses, leaving even bigger lenses to be handled by tripod mounts provided with the lens itself.
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Herbc

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 02:32:57 pm »

One would hope Nikon makes a D800/E with EVF and a flip screen.  Seems like that would satisfy macro needs.

What about the Sony A99?  I understand it has both EVF and the flip screen??

When I do venture into macro, the D800 and camranger  works well.

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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 05:48:29 pm »

I am looking for a pro Nikon body with an EVF and magnification assist. Using the large Zeiss APO lenses, it is too difficult to focus for single-shots in low light on the Nikon D800E. I love those features on the a7r, but the other factors we have discussed here are just not great yet.
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MarkKay

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 09:22:10 pm »

I had noticed similar problems and it was quite a disappointment.  One thing i noticed is that the vibration from the shutter can in part be mitigated by changing how the camera/lens is anchored.  For example--- I was using the Nikkor 200mm/4 AIS micro. I attached the lens to an arca cube --- horrible  blurred results even with 2sec delay shutter release.. I even tried to add more weight to the tripod… NADA.… Then i used the metabones foot as my  tripod mount and got much better results although not always perfect.
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jfirneno

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 09:52:08 pm »

I have the A7R and after reading the shutter shock stories I took a Minolta 200mm macro G lens and attached it through an Sony LAEA3 adapter to the A7R.  I mounted it to a tripod using the lens mounting foot (which should be the worst configuation since this leaves the A7R vibrating at the of the lens unsupported) and took some wholly worthless pictures of some house plants by window light.  I selected a focus point on some tiny filaments on one of the plants and blew up a close up to 200% (see post 358 in link below) and no blur!  So I think it's wholly dependent on the circumstances of which lens, what shutter speed and how stiff the components are that will determine if blur will occur.  But isn't that mostly always the case with long lenses?

Regards,
John

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49601-shutter-vibration-8.html
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 03:11:45 am »

Thanks for the posts. They were helpful.  I have decided to return my A7r while I can to B&H. I can see that some of you are finding ways to get around (as much as possible) the vibration issue. However, my work is all about close-up and macro sharpness, and while I love the EVF and magnification assist, the whole thing is just one more variable to struggle with than I need.

I am going to stick with my D800E and wait for a camera that has a large sensor (36 MP or higher), but no vibration issues, plus an EVF, etc.

I can jury-rig the a7r, but it just is not worth it. I appreciate all the info that has surfaced here.
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Jason Denning

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2014, 04:57:48 am »

The A7 is great for macro as the electronic first curtain means no vibration whatsoever. You do want to buy a lens collar mount that can attach to your lens adapter as that helps balance out heavy lenses nicely. I have been using mine with medium format lenses for macro.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Notes on the Sony A7r for Macro and Close-up Work
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 01:08:03 am »

The A7 is great for macro as the electronic first curtain means no vibration whatsoever. You do want to buy a lens collar mount that can attach to your lens adapter as that helps balance out heavy lenses nicely. I have been using mine with medium format lenses for macro.

A7 has the AA. How are you attaching the MF lens to the A7?

Cheik, one of the members has adapted a Fuji Gx680 body to accept the A7r. He also did with a Sinar board.
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