Poll

Do you save your originals as DNG or RAW?

DNG
- 22 (26.8%)
RAW
- 60 (73.2%)

Total Members Voted: 81


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Author Topic: DNG or RAW  (Read 60639 times)

Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #260 on: January 11, 2014, 12:41:37 pm »

Again, if the formats are not identical, they are different no?


you mix the format with the content... you know the difference, do you  ;D ? ... if I store the different value in a tag that contains camera model name, that will be a different content , but the same format...
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TonyW

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #261 on: January 11, 2014, 03:06:55 pm »

I simply suggest you just change the model in .NEF with hex editor and see for yourself  ;D...
That is not what you were suggesting in the reply to my post! 

Ignoring the percieved intent of your reply, the suggestion of using a hex editor to change camera details has been mentioned in many posts.  I am very familiar with hex editors but for this example I would use something like Exiftool as a quicker and simpler way to change data.

While changing the camera model name (and even the pixel count) may work to allow you to view a raw image currently unsuported it does not necessarily mean that you will get a comparable view of a normalised raw file i.e. as seen in any other raw converter that supports the new format.  Many minor things can and do change when the manufacturer updates or changes a camera.  Makernotes and other data may be moved rearranged etc.  So unless you are prepared to do a byte for byte comparison of two cameras raw files to establish and understand what is happening your data changes are at the best suspect.

The D600, D610 changes are both a good and bad example.  Good in the fact that technically the cameras are very similar including pixel count and (AFAIK) the demosaicing and processing algorithms.  But nevertheless under the hood other changes have been made notably Nikon has made changes to the auto white balance system and also extended the ISO range - what else may there be?   It is also a bad example due to the fact that the cameras are so close technically and to expect to make large changes to a raw from a very different current model from a manufacturers range is folly. 

I would suggest that the vast majority of users would not want to go down this route of low level editing, therefore we are once again back at the beginning
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #262 on: January 11, 2014, 03:40:47 pm »

That is not what you were suggesting in the reply to my post! 

I suggesting that you try to FUD people by mixing the format and the content...
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #263 on: January 11, 2014, 03:42:01 pm »

But nevertheless under the hood other changes have been made notably Nikon has made changes to the auto white balance system and also extended the ISO range - what else may there be?

and the values of WB and ISO are still recorded in the same tags in NEFs... data was changed, format was not... see the difference... it is like recoding different WB/ISO values in the same tags in DNG files... does Nikon introduce once in a while some different tags that Adobe's ACR/LR needs to use ? yes, but very rarely... ACR/LR are using quite limited set of data from NEFs as you know... just those that you see in DNG spec and a good chunk of those tags are filled by Adobe itself w/o extracting any data from NEFs for them becuase they suit how Adobe's raw converters do their work... again comparing sequential releases of dcraw (whose author is cooperating with Adobe, as it was on record said by, for example, Eric Chan) gives a very good idea about how often __FORMAT__ changes in terms of what Adobe needs to account for vs data (like camera model names, etc) in the same tags.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 03:48:11 pm by Vladimirovich »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #264 on: January 12, 2014, 03:38:43 am »

Hi,

My take is that there are minor changes, but enough changes so a new camera file won't work in existing raw converters.

Best regards
Erik


and the values of WB and ISO are still recorded in the same tags in NEFs... data was changed, format was not... see the difference... it is like recoding different WB/ISO values in the same tags in DNG files... does Nikon introduce once in a while some different tags that Adobe's ACR/LR needs to use ? yes, but very rarely... ACR/LR are using quite limited set of data from NEFs as you know... just those that you see in DNG spec and a good chunk of those tags are filled by Adobe itself w/o extracting any data from NEFs for them becuase they suit how Adobe's raw converters do their work... again comparing sequential releases of dcraw (whose author is cooperating with Adobe, as it was on record said by, for example, Eric Chan) gives a very good idea about how often __FORMAT__ changes in terms of what Adobe needs to account for vs data (like camera model names, etc) in the same tags.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #265 on: January 12, 2014, 03:44:50 am »

Hi,

Phase One is a Danish company and Leaf is Israelian, are they better at sharing information? With MFD-s you can download spec sheets from CCD manufacturers site.

Best regards
Erik

I don't know if it's specifically Japanese or not, but I do get the sense that companies like canon, Nikon and Sony per default consider everything a trade secret. There's no rational discussion if something can be open or not, it seems to be in the culture that everything should be kept proprietary. So I don't have high hopes that those big companies ever will adopt a standard format  :-\
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Erik Kaffehr
 

mouse

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #266 on: January 16, 2014, 04:43:54 pm »

I have read this entire thread and, despite the disagreement, I gained some knowledge and valuable insights.  Still I am left scratching my head over two questions (thoughts) left unanswered; perhaps because the answers are too obvious to those better informed than I.  I venture to enquire now that the fireworks have stopped.

On this and every other photography forum on the net we have all seen the following question and answer:
Quote
"I just bought a new camera and my ACR / LR (or other raw converter, other than the one provided by the camera maker) will not open the raw files."  And every time the following answer is offered: "Download Adobe's DNG Converter (free), convert your raw files and they will open in your converter software."

So apparently it is not necessary for Thomas or Eric to "hack" the new raw format first, before making it possible for the DNG converter to read the file and convert it to a form that is at least readable (and quite serviceable, if not optimally so) by conversion software not yet "updated" for the newer raw format.  So the question that occurs to me is: If the DNG converter can "decipher" these files (on the fly, so to speak) why has Adobe not built in this same capability into ACR / LR, thus short circuiting the intermediate conversion to DNG?

OK, next slide.  Several weeks have passed since the new camera's raw format was introduced.  Adobe has done their homework and decoded as much of the secret sauce as necessary to update ACR / LR so that the software can directly read the new format.  At the same time they (Adobe) usually provide one or more new dcp profiles to be used with the new camera's raw files.  And for their efforts they get more complaints than thanks:  "I can't get the same colors with your software that I obtain using the camera makers converter."  So apparently, despite their efforts, Thomas and Eric can't dig deep enough to truly duplicate the secret sauce in the camera makers raw format.  That being the case, what is the downside of the camera makers adopting a DNG raw format wherein they could still conceal their magic sauce?  My answer to the complainers would be: "So sh*t man; use the camera makers software if you prefer it, or create your own camera (dcp) profile."  That works fine whether you routinely convert your raw files to DNG or not.  Having a choice is nice.

One last question:  I have read that conversion to DNG embeds a dcp profile into the file.  I think this is, by default, the Adobe Standard profile (for the camera used).  If I have created a custom dcp profile for my camera, is it possible to configure the DNG converter to embed my chosen profile while converting.

Thanks for your attention.
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Tony Jay

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #267 on: January 16, 2014, 04:48:35 pm »

So apparently it is not necessary for Thomas or Eric to "hack" the new raw format first, before making it possible for the DNG converter to read the file and convert it to a form that is at least readable (and quite serviceable, if not optimally so) by conversion software not yet "updated" for the newer raw format.  So the question that occurs to me is: If the DNG converter can "decipher" these files (on the fly, so to speak) why has Adobe not built in this same capability into ACR / LR, thus short circuiting the intermediate conversion to DNG?
Actually they do!

Tony Jay
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digitaldog

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #268 on: January 16, 2014, 05:29:16 pm »

So apparently it is not necessary for Thomas or Eric to "hack" the new raw format first, before making it possible for the DNG converter to read the file and convert it to a form that is at least readable (and quite serviceable, if not optimally so) by conversion software not yet "updated" for the newer raw format.
Actually as Tony wrote, no. Let me explain. Let's say that the latest DNG converter is 6.0, released January 1st 2014 (that's NOT the case but this is an analogy). Let's say that version supports 350 cameras. Now let's say yesterday, January 15th, 2014, Canon comes out with a new camera. Version 6.0 will not understand that new raw and cannot convert it to DNG.

Thomas has to get his hands on the camera, at the very least a raw file. He has to hack it. The DNG converter will be updated to 6.0.1. That takes time (Thomas has to get the camera. Adobe Q&E has to test it, an installer has to be built. The web page has to be updated to describe all this). Now that version understands 351 cameras. And then this unnecessary cycle happens again. Is that clear?
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Schewe

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #269 on: January 16, 2014, 07:01:28 pm »

So apparently it is not necessary for Thomas or Eric to "hack" the new raw format first, before making it possible for the DNG converter to read the file and convert it to a form that is at least readable (and quite serviceable, if not optimally so) by conversion software not yet "updated" for the newer raw format.

Sorry, wrong...Thomas and Eric have to decode new raw files in order to have DNG Converter read them. And ACR/LR/DNG Converter all get updated at the same time. DNG Converter is for people with OLDER software whose ACR plug-in will never get upgraded..

Quote
So apparently, despite their efforts, Thomas and Eric can't dig deep enough to truly duplicate the secret sauce in the camera makers raw format.

Oh, they could, but to do so they would beed to adopt the camera maker's block box raw processing SDK. The vender match profiles are intended to simulate camera color. The Adobe Standard profile they build for each camera is designed to produce more accurate, normalized color.

 
Quote
One last question:  I have read that conversion to DNG embeds a dcp profile into the file.  I think this is, by default, the Adobe Standard profile (for the camera used).  If I have created a custom dcp profile for my camera, is it possible to configure the DNG converter to embed my chosen profile while converting.

If you take a raw file, apply a new custom camera profile (other than the default Adobe Standard) and then save out the DNG, yes, the different custom profile is embedded in the DNG. But no, you can't have DNG Converter embed a custom profile...
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Rhossydd

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #270 on: January 16, 2014, 07:17:46 pm »

If you take a raw file, apply a new custom camera profile (other than the default Adobe Standard) and then save out the DNG, yes, the different custom profile is embedded in the DNG. But no, you can't have DNG Converter embed a custom profile...
Not sure I understand that;
Firstly you say that a different profile is embedded in the DNG when it's converted from RAW, but then you say you can't embed a custom profile into a DNG.

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digitaldog

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #271 on: January 16, 2014, 07:20:27 pm »

Not sure I understand that;
Firstly you say that a different profile is embedded in the DNG when it's converted from RAW, but then you say you can't embed a custom profile into a DNG.
What Jeff wrote seems clear to me.
You can embed a DNG profile in a DNG. But NOT with the DNG converter (that's not it's role or job).
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mouse

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #272 on: January 16, 2014, 08:05:09 pm »

Many thanks to all who replied and corrected my misconceptions. :-[
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #273 on: January 16, 2014, 08:51:48 pm »

What Jeff wrote seems clear to me.
You can embed a DNG profile in a DNG. But NOT with the DNG converter (that's not it's role or job).
actually you can, but certainly it is not like you can select a profile to embed there from within Adobe DNG converter itself - Adobe DNG converter will for example embed the camera profile that you use in ACR to work with original raw image... it will pickup which one from a sidecar xmp for example... as it was said by prev. poster... so it is the same effect (converter embedding the profile), albeit not so straighforward
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:53:50 pm by Vladimirovich »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #274 on: January 16, 2014, 08:56:46 pm »

Version 6.0 will not understand that new raw and cannot convert it to DNG.
just because DNG converter is written in such a manner that it will not work even there are no changes at all...
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digitaldog

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #275 on: January 16, 2014, 08:56:56 pm »

actually you can, but certainly it is not like you can select a profile to embed there from within Adobe DNG converter itself - Adobe DNG converter will for example embed the camera profile that you use in ACR to work with original raw image... it will pickup which one from a sidecar xmp for example... as it was said by prev. poster... so it is the same effect (converter embedding the profile), albeit not so straighforward
I'm not entirely clear in what you're writing ;D
It sounds like you're saying, the DNG converter embeds a DNG profile, not a custom DNG Profile.
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digitaldog

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #276 on: January 16, 2014, 09:01:50 pm »

just because DNG converter is written in such a manner that it will not work even there are no changes at all...
Sorry, I'm not understanding that either. No changes at all in the new DNG? I suppose that's very possible. Something has to be different, otherwise why would the DNG converter not accept and convert that newer raw? I understand that some have suggested we can ourselves alter something in a new camera file but why should we and what is being altered that would prevent this and why?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #277 on: January 16, 2014, 09:03:13 pm »

One last question:  I have read that conversion to DNG embeds a dcp profile into the file.  I think this is, by default, the Adobe Standard profile (for the camera used).  If I have created a custom dcp profile for my camera, is it possible to configure the DNG converter to embed my chosen profile while converting.
you can open your raw file in ACR, select your custom profile, make sure that conversion setting are saved in sidecar .xmp and then Adobe DNG converter will embed that profile into converted DNG - but Adobe DNG converter itself does not allow you to select an arbitrary profile in its UI...  now if you can't use ACR w/ the original raw file you can always embed profile later in DNG with ACR after raw -> DNG conversion.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #278 on: January 16, 2014, 09:04:55 pm »

Sorry, I'm not understanding that either. No changes at all in the new DNG?

in camera raw (DNG or not)... no changes at all except the camera model name inside... wait... was it Canon with different names for cameras in Japan and the rest of the world  ::) - what a perfect example
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DNG or RAW
« Reply #279 on: January 16, 2014, 09:05:52 pm »

I'm not entirely clear in what you're writing ;D
It sounds like you're saying, the DNG converter embeds a DNG profile, not a custom DNG Profile.
it embeds custom DNG profile if that profile is referenced in a sidecar xmp file at the moment of conversion
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