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Author Topic: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)  (Read 15315 times)

RSL

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2014, 09:14:52 am »

Sorry, Alan. I'm not going to get into a discussion about the definition of art. Every such discussion I've ever seen turns out in the end to be asinine. It's like trying to prove the existence of God. Our ability to think, discuss, and "prove" is always constrained by space and time, limitations to comprehension that simply won't let us get the job done. In the end, of course, to prove the existence of God all you have to do is look around you. And it's somewhat the same thing with the definition of art. All you have to do is look around you. Everything is art or nothing is art. As you just pointed out, all you can do is compartmentalize and constrain your definitions, and what you end up with is called "nonsense."
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Ray

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2014, 09:48:54 am »

So since it has a utilitarian purpose architecture isn't art?

To the extent that architecture has a utilitarian purpose, that is to shelter and home people, or to provide a venue for various activities such as work and entertainment and so on, it is not art. However, if one were to add decorative features to a building in order to make it pleasing to the eye, and/or design a more interesting shape than the average, rectangular-box skyscraper, then that would be art. However, such features make the building more expensive but usually don't make the building more functional.

An example would be the Sydney Opera House. The design was very artistic, but construction costs were ridiculously high because the design was so difficult to implement. As an auditorium, the acoustics are nothing special.

There are countless examples of artifacts that have a utilitarian function and an added decoration which gives them an artistic dimension which doesn't increase their usefulness.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 09:50:47 am by Ray »
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RSL

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2014, 10:06:45 am »

. . .all you can do is compartmentalize and constrain your definitions, and what you end up with is called "nonsense."
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Isaac

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2014, 01:56:44 pm »

... and what you end up with is called "nonsense."

What you end up with may indeed be "nonsense"; others may end up with a better understanding.
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RSL

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2014, 01:59:55 pm »

Pictures, Isaac. This forum is about pictures. Photographs. Have you ever made any?
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Isaac

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2014, 03:59:46 pm »

Pictures, Isaac. This forum is about pictures. Photographs. Have you ever made any?

I think it's appropriate to repeat verbatim one of the things David Sutton wrote when he began this topic -- "Make no mistake, this is an attempt to shut down the discussion."

Apparently you don't wish to discuss this topic. Apparently you don't wish anyone else to discuss this topic. No one made you King.

This forum is "The Coffee Corner" -- "A forum for open discussion of both photographic and non-photographic topics of a general nature."
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Ray

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2014, 06:39:14 pm »

. . .all you can do is compartmentalize and constrain your definitions, and what you end up with is called "nonsense."

Russ,
I must admit that I find it strange you find my definition of art nonsense. It seems perfectly clear to me. I'm trying to think of exceptions that would fall outside of my definition, but I'm having difficulty.

Appearance counts for a lot. Most of the consumer items we buy have a primary functional purpose, which is not artistic, and a decorative adornment, shape, design or style which falls into the category of art.

Such art can exist in its own right, as for example a wood carving, a painting or a photograph. Or that art work can be a part of a utilitarian artifact.

A carpenter can make a chair which is perfectly functional, durable and inexpensive. A cabinet maker with an artistic flair can make a chair with interesting carvings for the legs and a decorative pattern on the cushions. Such a chair would be considered a work of art, but it is is no more functional for being a work of art. In fact it might be less functional, although it would certainly cost more. Art does not come free.

The same usually applies to the houses we live in, the cars we drive and the clothes we wear. If they are purely functional without adornment (art), they are considered to be boring.
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SunnyUK

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2014, 06:01:24 am »

Shame about the petty nit picking and re-grinding of age-old axes that it caused. But I truly enjoyed reading the original post. Thank you very much for penning it.
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WalterEG

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2014, 06:13:13 am »

'Twas ever thus, SunnyUK,

Sad, but true.
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Isaac

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2014, 09:38:29 pm »

I'll propose a broad definition of art...

We can do better than that by opening a dictionary, and we can develop a richer understanding when we consider more than a one line definition.

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David Sutton

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2014, 02:39:07 am »

But I truly enjoyed reading the original post. Thank you very much for penning it.

Thank you SunnyUK!
I've been off in the wilds of NZ with my camera making art. I don't know if it will be good art, but we can all dream a little and that does no harm.
On the other hand it has been such fun.
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Rob C

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 03:45:48 am »

Thank you SunnyUK!
I've been off in the wilds of NZ with my camera making art. I don't know if it will be good art, but we can all dream a little and that does no harm.
On the other hand it has been such fun.



C'mon Dave, you know the fun bit was the campfire cooking!

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 03:06:05 pm by Rob C »
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David Sutton

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2014, 03:59:17 am »

Caught me out Rob  :)
Campfire cooking and sleeping under the stars (with the aid of a sturdy mosquito net)
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Ray

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 07:31:23 pm »

We can do better than that by opening a dictionary, and we can develop a richer understanding when we consider more than a one line definition.


Isaac,
I was trying to start off with a broad, fundamental and inclusive definition that applies in all circumstances, regardless of differences of opinions, likes and taste, and regardless of the various types and styles of art.

For example, let's consider the  definitions in your dictionary to which you provided a link above. They all refer to man-made objects of some sort that are beautiful or express ideas or feeling, such as images, music, sculptures, paintings, drawings, acting, dancing etc.

Is there likely to be any contributor to this forum who is not aware that the above are, or can be, forms of art? Is it likely that anyone is not aware that art is supposed to be beautiful in some respect or expressive of some sort of feeling or idea?

The problems arise when attempting to categorize specific examples of the above-mentioned objects as art. Some folks might legitimately claim that photographs are not art because the camera does most of the work and merely records the patterns of light passing through the lens.

Others might claim that Andy Warhol's paintings of cans of beans and cans of soup, are not art because they are too commonplace and representational, like a photograph. Yet others will claim that certain abstract paintings consisting of paint thrown at, or onto a canvas, are not art.

What I am attempting in my one-line definition is to describe a quality which all art possesses. That art should be beautiful is not necessarily a defining quality because beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

We could elaborate on your dictionary definition along the lines, "The making of objects that are considered to be beautiful in the eyes of at least one person, but such a definition might then include all objects that have ever been made. It's quite possible that at least one person could examine a screw in a hardware shop, hold it up to the light and declare, "That's really beautiful. What a marvelous piece of art."

The quality which I find to be common in all art is it's non-utilitarian purpose, at least in the modern meaning of the word. Centuries ago, before mechanisation and industrialisation, art was often just a synonym for skill. The hand-weaving of garments was considered an art.

In our modern era I see a movement away from such practical concerns, regarding what is considered to be art. The finest form of art is often considered to be music. Why should that be the case? Is that merely a matter of taste? For example, "I enjoy music more than I enjoy paintings, therefore music is a finer or higher form of art than painting, in my opinion", or is there some other defining quality about music that might give reason for it to be considered the highest form of art?

The 19th century English essayist and art critic, Walter Pater, wrote, "All art constantly aspires to the condition of music". What did he mean by that?

I would say that the key to understanding what he meant is provided by my definition of art as something which has a non-utilitarian purpose. There is nothing more non-utilitarian than music. It is pure abstraction, purged of all the literal meaning that usually exists in other forms of art, such as photography, poetry, narrative, painting and architecture etc.

I rest my case.  ;D
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niznai

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 10:27:52 pm »

Hmm. This one should be rather simple. If it sells for more money than it's worth as an object, it's art. No need for complicamacated considerations.
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Ray

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2014, 12:32:17 am »

Hmm. This one should be rather simple. If it sells for more money than it's worth as an object, it's art. No need for complicamacated considerations.

And if it doesn't sell for more money than it's worth as an object, as in a down-and-out painter flogging his work for no more than the cost of the paint, canvas and framing, or an art shop having a big clearance sale because they are going out of business, then the works are not art. Right?

If I buy bananas in a shop for $1 per kg, then later the same day see the same type of bananas in another shop priced at $3 per kg, I can assume that the more expensive bananas are works of art. Right?  ;)

I think you'll find that the actual worth of any object, whether considered to be art or not, is a matter of highly variable, personal opinion.
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Tony Jay

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 12:47:58 am »

Hmm. This one should be rather simple. If it sells for more money than it's worth as an object, it's art. No need for complicamacated considerations.
Have to agree with Ray.
There are a lot of dubious definitions of art out there - this one must rank as the worst I have come across.

I just don't think that there can be a universal definition of art to which everyone can agree to.
I can certainly say that there are apparent object de art that sell for six and seven figure sums that I would not accept as a giveaway.
Perhaps that makes me a cultural philistine.

Isn't it art if someone (anyone) thinks it is art?

Tony Jay
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:51:36 am by Tony Jay »
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Isaac

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2014, 09:34:53 pm »

I just don't think that there can be a universal definition of art to which everyone can agree to.

There doesn't need to be, it's completely ordinary usage to have multiple definitions for a word which are negotiated according to context.

Occasionally there's even a need to be equivocal about death.
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Alan Klein

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2014, 11:24:19 pm »

In the eye of the beholder.

Isaac

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Re: "What is art?" (With a nod to Robert Henri)
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 12:47:44 am »

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