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Author Topic: Epson Advance B&W  (Read 6815 times)

alifatemi

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Epson Advance B&W
« on: December 20, 2013, 04:50:08 pm »

Jeff Schewe in Digital Print for B&W printing(P.230), advices to choose " Manage by printer" option instead of using paper profile in LR, then in Epson driver to chose Advanced black and white(ABW). I did so but it seems by selecting manage by printer, all the fine tune I'd done in soft proof are not applied anymore; In a print job done by 11880, the print was far more contrasty compare to choosing paper profile + Epson ABW; the latter is very similar to soft proof and far more reliable almost WYSWYG. Using paper profile but not choosing ABW, print got a little blue cast as Jeff mentioned in P. 229 of course but with paper profile+ABW, every thing is fine. Maybe I have not understood Jeff correctly . any comment?
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Schewe

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 10:09:39 pm »

On Mac you MUST choose Managed By Printer to even get to the Advanced B&W mode...you don't have an option. You can still use a profile and the A B&W in Windows for a short while but both Photoshop and Lightroom are set up to not work with profiles if you want to use A B&W.

If you wish to softproof to a paper/printer profile you'll need to use the Managed by Application method and choose the profile in the app.
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alifatemi

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 11:42:12 pm »

Thanks Jeff but why they want to stop windows working ABW and paper profile together like now, it seems its the best way to have both world, isn't it? in ABW without profile, I have no control on final result at all, it makes soft proofing useless. Am I wrong?
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Schewe

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 11:58:13 pm »

The problem is if an application color management AND the printer color management are both used, the odds are that will result in a color management problem. The Advanced B&W Mode was a special case developed by Epson for what is actually a niche market. And while currently in Windows you can use both color management pipelines in older versions of applications, since CS6 and LR 4, Adobe has turned off the option to use both. Windows is expected to eventually end the option in upcoming future OS's. Progress = 2 steps forward, 1 step back :~(

Later in the book I also cover the QuadTone Rip which might be an alternative to look at.
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robgo2

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 06:36:58 pm »

ImagePrint has grayscale profiles for almost all papers, and it allows for soft proofing either in IP or Photoshop, but not Lightroom, as far as I know.  It is expensive, but the usability and the results are excellent, with exceptionally rich, detailed shadows and beautiful tonality overall.

Rob
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Rand47

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 03:05:12 pm »

Quote
. . . will result in a color management problem. . . .

I can attest to this.  When I first set out to explore the ABW capability (W7 machine) my intent was to see if ABW brought anything better  to the table than using color mode for monochrome prints.  My initial results were that the color mode monochrome prints were so much better than ABW that I thought ABW something of a joke.  The ABW prints were flat looking, not good tonal transitions, and just awful compared to the color mode monochrome print of the same file.  For a long time I just disregarded ABW as viable.

Doh!!!!  Operator error!!!  I was putting the Epson driver in ABW mode in the Page Setup, but leaving the LR print module with LR manages colors via the appropriate paper profile.

When I finally got my head out in the sunshine, and had LR print module set to "Managed by Printer" rather than the paper profile - well the ABW prints looked fabulous.  And experimenting with Neutral/Warm/Cool yielded exactly that.

For many images the difference between ABW and color mode is moot, but for those images that can sometimes print with a very slight color cast in color mode, the ABW resolves that nicely.

Rand
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 06:06:03 am »

Thanks Jeff but why they want to stop windows working ABW and paper profile together like now, it seems its the best way to have both world, isn't it? in ABW without profile, I have no control on final result at all, it makes soft proofing useless. Am I wrong?

If you use Windows you can get Qimage Ultimate and set its CM on OFF!!! and set the driver in the right ABW + CM mode. Windows CM will not interfere. I expect that Mike Chaney will not bend to (Microsoft) OS manufacturer whims unlike Adobe did for Apple. Adobe turned its back too in that movement as it included the applications for Windows in the unnecessary changes. You get the picture.

In that Qimage Ultimate>Epson 11880 driver ABW mode you can optimize the tone control by making QTR (RGB) B&W profiles based on a linearization step. In that case Qimage Ultimate CM is ON!!! but uses this B&W profile and the Epson Driver CM is kept on too, normally a case of dual profiling but for good reasons here. Qimage Ultimate's softproof will show the tone values and color tone but only the tone value part of the profile influences the print. The color tone settings of ABW + paper have to be identical to the setting used when the B&W profile target was printed, say neutral or sepia so the softproof is 1:1 to the ABW settings.

You can use Qimage Ultimate's CM OFF!!! setting also and do a P2P in Photoshop with the QTR B&W profile and save the image with printer profile assigned to bring it in Qimage that way. A bit more work and more memory hungry.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 05:25:35 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Paul2660

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 03:38:18 pm »

The output from the Epson B&W driver for me is very good.  But the interface is not so good in that when the pop up box comes up with the woman's face, you can't tell how any of the changes you make will effect your print.  This is unfortunate as the output makes very good prints.  I tend to write down my settings to use them on prints in the future.

I need to relook at Qimage again, I still just can't get used to the Qimage interface.

Paul Caldwell
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alifatemi

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 03:44:18 pm »

The output from the Epson B&W driver for me is very good.  But the interface is not so good in that when the pop up box comes up with the woman's face, you can't tell how any of the changes you make will effect your print.  This is unfortunate as the output makes very good prints.  I tend to write down my settings to use them on prints in the future.

I need to relook at Qimage again, I still just can't get used to the Qimage interface.

Paul Caldwell


It is exactly everybody's problem and very strange Epson and Adobe just ignore it! can't believe it. Although I did a test today printing one file, one with "manage by printer" + ABW  and another manage with application (paper profile ) + ABW in Windows 7+LR5.3, both prints were identical. It seems choosing manage by printer+ABW does apply what I have done in soft proof under consideration! for Windows user, is a good news. I will do some other prints and post the results here. But as Jeff mentioned, Mac users can't choose both manage by profile +ABW
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:51:45 pm by alifatemi »
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Farmer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 03:52:56 pm »

They're not ignoring it - neither of them.  Both are making it work exactly as intended.  If you want more advanced control, you need a RIP or Qimage or similar.  You get what you get currently with ABW for free.
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Phil Brown

alifatemi

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 04:18:36 pm »

I don't want anything for free please! LR just gives me the B&W print I see on my monitor without color cast and I am more than happy; for what I have already paid.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 04:30:54 pm by alifatemi »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2013, 03:06:08 pm »

The Advanced B&W Mode was a special case developed by Epson for what is actually a niche market. And while currently in Windows you can use both color management pipelines in older versions of applications, since CS6 and LR 4, Adobe has turned off the option to use both. Windows is expected to eventually end the option in upcoming future OS's. Progress = 2 steps forward, 1 step back :~(
Did you mean LR5?  I'm still printing from LR4 using ABW profiles that Eric Chan prepared and some that I have prepared and the work fine with Windows 7.
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Farmer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2013, 04:58:57 pm »

They work with Windows because Microsoft has not enforced the new paradigm in the way that Apple has.  Possibly you can add "yet" to that, but as of 8.1 they still haven't forced it, just made it default.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2013, 05:22:48 pm »

They work with Windows because Microsoft has not enforced the new paradigm in the way that Apple has.  Possibly you can add "yet" to that, but as of 8.1 they still haven't forced it, just made it default.
I know but Jeff's comment was somewhat cryptic and I was curious whether Adobe had done something in LR5.  I'm happy to keep using the ABW profiles until they are not usable once MSFT does what Apple did.  I've been making some nice ArgyllCMS profiles with extended B/W patches that can fill in when that happens.  The one advantage as noted earlier is that at least one can still soft proof in Windows if using an ABW profile which does save some time and effort on getting the print right.
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Farmer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 07:17:54 pm »

It's not really under Adobe's control, so I don't see it changing until Windows does.
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Phil Brown

Schewe

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 11:59:50 pm »

I know but Jeff's comment was somewhat cryptic and I was curious whether Adobe had done something in LR5.

I wasn't being intentionally "cryptic", but it all depends on the print driver, the OS and the application. For example...in Photoshop CS6 and CC, if you select an RGB printer, you can't even see "B&W profiles" because an RGB printer isn't a B&W printer. Yes, there are ways around that but it's neither easy nor obvious...

But the bottom line is that for print drivers with dedicated B&W mode print paths, you are doing a niche type printing which isn't generally supported in the current OS/Print Driver/Application pipeline. Am I happy about that? No...I wish Adobe/the print drivers had given us an easy work-around...but they didn't. Yes, Windows is less "restrictive" than the Mac OS. Am I happy about that? No...it seems that Apple has gone out of their way to screw up ColorSync print pipelines with recent OS updates.

However, rather than try to be a salmon and fight my way upstream (only to die after spawning) I'm more inclined to follow the path of least resistance (which means I don't "Piss&Moan™" about changes I can't control and modify my workflow to work with the current application/print driver/OS version that I'm using...and it's always a crapshooter as to what OS/Print Driver/Application "upgrade" dumps on me...

Yes, I use the Epson Advanced B&W Mode when printing pure B&W images...no, I can't "exactly" softproof my images...I use test prints to determine the best possible output. Would I like to be able to use an ICC Profile to soft proof the Epson AB&W mode? Yes...but at the moment, on Mac with recent apps and OS's that's not possible. Does that mean I stop printing? Nope...it only modifies my workflow. I still get pretty nice B&W prints though :~)
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alifatemi

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2013, 01:13:49 am »

The question is even in Windows and LR that you can chose both paper profile + ABW, if Epson driver listen to paper profile and your changes in soft proof or just ignore it? the fact that you have option in Windows to choose both maybe is just a software glitch  and ABW just overrule everything, including your changes in soft proof and paper profile even in Windows. it can be easily tested.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 01:28:23 am by alifatemi »
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Farmer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2013, 01:56:15 am »

It's not a glitch - the default is to push you away from it, but if you choose to do it under Windows it will currently work (in so much as it was never designed with that intent, but the kludge works as intended still).
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Phil Brown

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2013, 08:54:05 am »

The question is even in Windows and LR that you can chose both paper profile + ABW, if Epson driver listen to paper profile and your changes in soft proof or just ignore it? the fact that you have option in Windows to choose both maybe is just a software glitch  and ABW just overrule everything, including your changes in soft proof and paper profile even in Windows. it can be easily tested.

The history of this stretches back to the introduction of the Epson 2400 and the first ABW mode in an Epson driver. After that more Epson, HP and Canon varieties of ABW appeared for many printers. At least for the Epsons and HPs with a recommendation to use printer CM in that B&W mode. I'm not familiar with the Canon recommendation. Steve Kale then experimented with the 2400 + Epson driver and the then quite new QTR profile creation application. It worked on the two OSses and Eric Chan made his own version of that approach. The advantages were at least a higher Dmax than possible with the color managed color modes and for Epsons a higher reduction of the color inks in the B&W prints than possible in the color mode. No OS or Adobe program then obstructed the different methods to get good Dmax with a custom profiled/linearized printer in B&W mode.

This ended when Apple made Colorsync dominant in the chain of color management. It assigned a color space to an image on its own decisions without offering the user a choice to alter the choices in a transparent way. More people suggested a trick to fool the system and that worked for some time. It certainly was not that Apple had a fluid cooperation of Adobe or Epson at that time. It not only made the B&W profiling impossible but also the printing of profiling targets through the OEM printer path. The adapted drivers appeared later and Adobe's CS got their CM OFF amputated after that, also for the Windows version. An Adobe replacement application for printing targets with an OEM driver appeared months later after the CM OFF was taken out. It had a flaw too, still has.

This shift in Apple's color management policy has only one goal: make the color management fool proof. I doubt it improves that route much for fools, they tend to make more mistakes along the way (Adobe could as well take out all user choices in PS for profile assigning). It did make it more difficult for people with skills in printing, color management, profile creation and in that niche of B&W profiled B&W printing. On the Colorsync list many complained about the new approach, knowledgeable members there, not a typical whiners forum.

To call this remaining Windows flexibility in color management choices a glitch or kludge is rewriting history from a big manufacturer's perspective.. Many programs still offer a real CM OFF choice for good reasons. Some are actually written to solve this issue on the Mac. Let's hope that PrinTao 8 solves it too. I tend to think that the independent writers consider their software users not as fools in the first place. The relation between big software manufacturers and software users is changing in other ways, could be another test whether users are in general fools or not.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 09:37:51 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Farmer

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Re: Epson Advance B&W
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2013, 04:41:32 pm »

It's a kludge (and always was) in so much as it was never intended by Epson to be used in that way.  That doesn't make it wrong, just not as intended by the vendor and therefore not officially supported.
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Phil Brown
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