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Author Topic: A7r Shutter shake!!!  (Read 48954 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2013, 10:51:11 PM »

FTA:
For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.

Indeed, unless I got the conversion wrong, this adds 737 gr to the weight of the a7r, making it a 1202 gr body, which is the weight of a D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2013, 03:38:09 AM »

What if you use long lens support. Or could you connect the camera to the tripod foot on a lens. Would that reduce or eliminate a7r shutter shake? Do you really have to add that much more mass?
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scooby70

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2013, 09:29:48 AM »

FTA:
For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.

Price? Isn't this camera cheap for a FF digital camera?
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2013, 11:04:15 AM »

Price? Isn't this camera cheap for a FF digital camera?

It's about £1700 where I am so nope I don't consider that cheap.
Being honest I'm puzzled as to why there is no electronic first curtain as they have this on their SLT models and the A7

Looks like the A7 is the better buy right now unless Sony can fix the problem.
These "shutter shock/shake/vibration" issue seems to be spread across other makers, I've read plenty of reports of micro 4/3 users having issue on the OM-D EM-5, not sure about the EM-1 or Panasonic and I've not read any Fuji owners kicking up about it.

Have to wonder if makers are doing adequate "field testing" of these cameras because it's something that shouldn't arise at all.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2013, 11:19:04 AM »

I was surprised it was closer to D600 than 800 in price. So I'd say you get a lot of sensor for the price. Shutter shake is inherent to FP shutter and no electronic first curtain shutter seems to be tied to the design of the sensor. I think the A7 was the camera Sony designed but the R is what most people think they want so Sony offered it as an option.
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Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2013, 03:18:10 PM »

These "shutter shock/shake/vibration" issue seems to be spread across other makers, I've read plenty of reports of micro 4/3 users having issue on the OM-D EM-5, not sure about the EM-1 or Panasonic and I've not read any Fuji owners kicking up about it.

Have to wonder if makers are doing adequate "field testing" of these cameras because it's something that shouldn't arise at all.

I've never seen "shutter shock" with the E-M5 (or E-M1) though I have seen anecdotal reports of it. I'm mostly skeptical, though I don't completely dismiss it. Given a mechanical shutter mechanism some degree of vibration is bound to be possible under some conditions. And given the degree of measurbating scrutiny cameras are now subject to, if anything dares interfere with our worship of the sharpness god it'll be identified (and vilified). Now even with that bit of sarcasm I agree that issues of this sort, where they actually exist in a repeatably quantifiable manner, should be caught before the cameras reach the marketplace.

-Dave-
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Deep

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Re:
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2013, 05:39:05 PM »

I was surprised it was closer to D600 than 800 in price. So I'd say you get a lot of sensor for the price. Shutter shake is inherent to FP shutter and no electronic first curtain shutter seems to be tied to the design of the sensor. I think the A7 was the camera Sony designed but the R is what most people think they want so Sony offered it as an option.
You might have nailed it!  I spent a bit of time with both last week and the A7 was so much better, in terms of focus, shutter movement and sensor (in that the one advantage of the 7R sensor is barely discernible while the massive files are most certainly noticeable later).  Yet I was told they had been selling 7R at four times the rate of the 7.

What i found even more interesting was that the A7/28-70 lens combo is cheaper than the EM1/12-40 combo.  Not that that is relevant to this discussion per se but it puts the Sony price in perspective.
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GregShapps

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2013, 05:53:18 PM »

Is this shutter shake only occurring during hand holding or is it so bad that it occurs while on a tripod or camera stand?   The more I try to read about this camera the more confused I become.   
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BernardLanguillier

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Re:
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2013, 05:54:12 PM »

Yet I was told they had been selling 7R at four times the rate of the 7.

And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard
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philbond87

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2013, 05:56:47 PM »

One thing they (we (I)) want more than and increased number of pixels is increased dynamic range, to use with Canon's TS-E lenses.
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peterottaway

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2013, 07:14:12 PM »

Canon may be attempting to claim a virtue out of their current technological circumstances. As Canon have a large market share they have grown complacent. They were relying on  previous decisions on sensor development in line with what they had and maximizing profit from this.

Plus relying on a large degree of inertia in the buying public to get them through any unpleasant surprises.
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bcooter

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »

I've never seen "shutter shock" with the E-M5 (or E-M1) though I have seen anecdotal reports of it. I'm mostly skeptical, though I don't completely dismiss it. Given a mechanical shutter mechanism some degree of vibration is bound to be possible under some conditions. And given the degree of measurbating scrutiny cameras are now subject to, if anything dares interfere with our worship of the sharpness god it'll be identified (and vilified). Now even with that bit of sarcasm I agree that issues of this sort, where they actually exist in a repeatably quantifiable manner, should be caught before the cameras reach the marketplace.

-Dave-

Dave, Dave, Dave,

You'll never convince anyone that a smaller sensor produces a better look or for that matter file.

I've been going around during our holiday shopping and shooting some scenics of London for my parents.   I'm not a scenic guy and just want to make them some pretty snapshots

Last night on the Thames, shooting with the panasonic Leica 25 across the river I did snap and later looked at it at 100%.  Way out on the bridge was a subject.  Not super detailed but in relation to the image would be about a small sharpie dot on the rear lcd, the subject is that small in the frame.

I looked at it and could tell the subject was portly, wore  and was I think was a security guard from the patches on this jacket.

I hit info and saw that I shot it at f 1.4 and 1/6th of a second.  Not 1/60th, 1/6th hand held and I'm pretty steady but not that steady, so the olympus stabilization clicked in or i got lucky.

Also in regards to price, shoot the em1 and the new olympus zoom and then try the sony because I did and I bought the em-1.

So to each his own, but I'd try it first.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 08:17:22 PM by bcooter »
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bcooter

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Re:
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM »

And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC

allegretto

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Re:
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2013, 09:41:53 PM »

Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC

Now that's funny...!

What will they have to talk about?

It seems that folks think Canon lacks the Engineering Dept to do a tight chip, which I doubt. As always, the Accounting dept rules. Would bet that once they see a certain level of interest/acceptance/desire for Big Counts they will do a one-up. Happens all the time.

It is interesting to note that Sony has issues with such a device. Ironic that Sony makes the chip in the Nikon. Shows that you can have a lot of Engineers and still not control the process.

Engineer joke; anyone can make a machine that works, it takes an Engineer to make a machine that just barely works...
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Deep

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Re:
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2013, 10:00:08 PM »

And Canon executives think nobody needs/wants more than 22mp... :)

Cheers,
Bernard

They're half right, in that case. Virtually no one needs more than maybe around 8mp.  Lots of people think they want much more but very few need more.  Once you get to about 18mp, you'd be a manic pixel peeper to see the gain from even doubling resolution.  However, the internet is full of people who love to claim otherwise and that must be one source of marketing information which drives manufacturers on.

As for this business of knocking Canon sensors as dated, lacking dynamic range, being noisy or not having enough megapixels, well, they still sell truckloads of Canons with stunningly good sensors, which satisfy a huge range of people from pros to snappers.  Some Sony sensors are mildly better than some Canon sensors in some situations.  Yawn.  No one makes a big sensor that is bad anymore.  The sensor in the A7 is particularly sweet but not that much better than anything else that it would make me buy into an incomplete system (and I am seriously in the market at the moment).
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Don

Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2013, 02:24:31 PM »

Engineer joke; anyone can make a machine that works, it takes an Engineer to make a machine that just barely works...

 :D  My first programming teacher, Mrs. Wilhetta Hoyer in 10th grade (US high school), had a poster on the wall of her classroom that said: "To err is human. But to really &@*! things up requires a computer."

I find that all my current digi cameras, from the 645D down to m43, can resolve more detail than I can fit into a 15x20" print. That's as big as I go aside from the occasional stitched pano on roll paper. Not that I'm arguing against putting more photosites on sensors...not at all. I want to see the companies involved push their tech as hard & far as they can. There are some benefits too from capturing at a high sampling rate & then downsampling. In particular with the Pentax I can underexpose by a stop at ISO 1600, then output the processed RAW data, with minimal NR applied, as a downsampled TIF for printing or display. This gives me a totally usable EI 3200 with that camera.

What I'm still waiting for with electronic tech is the dynamic range of the best neg films combined with the tonal gradation of the best transparencies. Not there yet but getting closer.

-Dave-
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eronald

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Re:
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2013, 03:02:48 PM »

James,

 What is it about London air that switches on the sarcasm gene?
 Anyway, Nikon body rubber seems to fall off after a few years so Bernard is in no danger of "permanent protection" ;)
 BTW, shoot me an email - edmundronald at gmail dot com. I seem to have located a Leica guy who might know a Leica guy ...


Allegretto,
  It's pretty clear that Canon are going to revamp their base sensor tech, and that they already have some candidates. It's anyone's guess what they'll choose to sell, and whether they will choose to invest in their own production equipment (steppers) to do make it.

Edmund

Bernard,

I can't wait until Canon comes out with a 50mpx camera for $900 and you have to spend $3,000 having that Nikon Logo removed from your arm.

I'll chip in 500 bucks if you send me some snap shots when you do it.

Happy Holidays.

BC
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 03:16:57 PM by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2013, 04:00:20 PM »

Hi,

Regarding the DR thing I would suggest it's best to use HDR, but that may be implemented on chip. Fuji had once a sensor with a dual set of sensels that were usen to extend DR. On the other hand, R is also limited by lens flare, to much light is bouncing around in the lens to be able to fully utilise the DR of the sensor.

Small pixels are good to reduce aliasing artifacts, se samples here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

:D  My first programming teacher, Mrs. Wilhetta Hoyer in 10th grade (US high school), had a poster on the wall of her classroom that said: "To err is human. But to really &@*! things up requires a computer."

I find that all my current digi cameras, from the 645D down to m43, can resolve more detail than I can fit into a 15x20" print. That's as big as I go aside from the occasional stitched pano on roll paper. Not that I'm arguing against putting more photosites on sensors...not at all. I want to see the companies involved push their tech as hard & far as they can. There are some benefits too from capturing at a high sampling rate & then downsampling. In particular with the Pentax I can underexpose by a stop at ISO 1600, then output the processed RAW data, with minimal NR applied, as a downsampled TIF for printing or display. This gives me a totally usable EI 3200 with that camera.

What I'm still waiting for with electronic tech is the dynamic range of the best neg films combined with the tonal gradation of the best transparencies. Not there yet but getting closer.

-Dave-

Vladimirovich

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Re:
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2013, 04:11:01 PM »

well, they still sell truckloads of Canons with stunningly good sensors
the word "stunningly" does not belong here... they do their work, but they really don't really "stun" anybody... 1Dx sensor might be competetive in its department, but that's all about it.
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Deep

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Re:
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2013, 02:48:39 PM »

the word "stunningly" does not belong here... they do their work, but they really don't really "stun" anybody... 1Dx sensor might be competetive in its department, but that's all about it.
Couldn't disagree with you more.  As I look around various photographer websites, some galleries etc., I see more images I would call "stunning" made with Canon sensors than any other brand.  It's not that the Canon sensors are better than Sony sensors (they're not), nor that the images couldn't have been made with Sony sensors.  It's more that the Canon sensors are massively capable and not the limiting factor for gifted photographers who are very good technically and artistically.  You pretty much can't buy a bad sensor in a big camera any more.
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Don
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