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Author Topic: A7r Shutter shake!!!  (Read 48910 times)

tho_mas

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2014, 05:58:23 AM »

no issues with the shape but it needs to have the heft of a Leica (or thereabouts). When you're handholding at slow-ish shutter speeds there's no inertial ballast to help you keep steady. Every tiny movement you make gets mainlined right to the lens. The clunky shutter doesn't help but IMO the camera's (lack of) mass is a more significant issue, especially given its high-res capability.
with an L-Plate mounted things get somewhat better since the L-Plate adds weight (I've got the RRS and the additional weight feels "right").
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 06:03:28 AM by tho_mas »
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billy

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2014, 11:19:50 AM »

For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 12:34:42 PM by billy »
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bcooter

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2014, 01:27:58 PM »

The VF 4 gives you slightly more magnification, but almost double the resolution on the em-5.  It also tilts up and makes a good waist level finder without left being right, right being left.

You need to update the firmware for the viewfinder and some of the pana lenses to work properly, but that's a pretty easy task.

The only problem with the em-5 and the vf4 is you lose the ability to add flash either on camera or through a remote like a pocket wizard, unless there is some attachment I don't know about (If anyone does let me know).

The Leica pana is very sharp, the olympus micro 43 primes are mostly excellent.   The 45 is good the 75 is probably the best lens they make.

I haven't tried it with C-1 as lightroom has a very good look on the olympus, which is opposite of other cameras I've used in c-1 and lightroom.  

In regards to the menu and setting up the file, yes you can change the raw to anything you like, but when you start very close to your look, it's a lot easier to fine tune a file than to start 75% off.

I have NR to zero, sharpness knocked down, shading comp off,  I set the high fps at 6 because I don't think it track focuses if you are set higher than 6fps.

I change the color of the evf to more match my computer and there is a button with a curve function where I open up the shadows, close down the highlights.

I also set the viewfinder/lcd where the lcd is off when I shoot and to view an image i just hit the play button.  Sometimes the eye sensor can drive you crazy with it flicking back and forth from evf to lcd so I just turn off the lcd and it also saves on batteries.

With batteries, if you don't chimp a lot two will last a long time, but if you run both the lcd and evf and spend a lot of time with the lcd the batteries will drain fairly quickly as they aren't that large.

Also if you have a good medium sized camera strap that also helps balance the camera.  

A suggestion, when you run through the menu keep a pad next to you as the menu is complicated and doesn't revert back to where you left it, so you have to remember what you changed.

That's crazy, but that's the way it is and a pad and a old school pen will speed you along.

Do yourself a favor.  When you test the camera, don't shoot it, then another camera and back and forth.  I know that sounds logical but it just messes you up and keeps you from building muscle memory of how a camera works.

At first when I was using the gh3's for video I'd shoot some stills, them grab the em-5.    The Panasonic has the most logical setup of any camera I've used and it soured me on the olympus, until I just decided to stop doing that and only use the panasonics for video, the olympus for stills and then the olympus made sense.

Also when you start comparing files, look at the file as a photo, not a scientific experiment.   Overall the file is beautiful, but if you start going it at 100% you'll develope a false impression.

I know I thought the Canon 1dx was a way superior file until I finally built a body of work with the em-5 and now I believe the opposite.

Also the one drawback on the em-5 is it only goes to 1 4,000th of a second, so a .3 or .6 nd outside is not a bad idea.

I would also rent the right angle grip and battery holder.  It makes the camera a nice size and gives it more balance.

The camera isn't perfect, requires a leap of faith due to it's size, but if you just shoot and shoot it like it's a $20,000 camera vs. a $700 camera (new price) I think you'l be surprised, but then again everyone has different expectations.

IMO

BC


For BCooter and other em 5 users:

I gotta rent the Oly em5, sounds great. I have a couple questions though:

Why do u use the add on viewfinder? Is the built in one useable?

I was hoping to get a good prime lens with it, thinking about the Leica pana 25mm 1.4 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768816-REG/Panasonic_H_X025_Leica_DG_Summilux_25.html ), great lens but will the AF work during video filming? Are there other options in this FOV range?

I keep hearing how u need to "set up the menu" to get the file to look how u want. If your shooting raw why does it matter? Or are u referring to video?

Does the file look ok in C1 pro?

Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2014, 02:43:44 PM »

with an L-Plate mounted things get somewhat better since the L-Plate adds weight (I've got the RRS and the additional weight feels "right").

I was thinking about that kind of thing after my previous post. On my Rickie 4001 bass guitar I use a clamp-on gizmo called a Fat Finger to minimize a resonance that can reduce the sustain of certain notes. Same principle really. I'll have to look into the L-Plate. Thanks!

-Dave-
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Primus

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2014, 05:13:29 PM »

This "Shutter issue" is like revisiting the D800 AF issue all over again. Tons of internet amplification, no big deal in real life for most people.


While it may be true for some people, I have been fortunate enough not to have a problem.

I tested the camera today on a tripod with tethered shooting on my Mac and with Canon lenses. Tested with the 70-200 f2.8 and the 600 f4 MkII. Speeds ranging from 1/10 s to 1/800 on the 600 and 1/25 s to 1/400 on the 70-200. Tested wide open to f8.

I just did a simple test in the backyard to simulate the real world.

As far as I am concerned there is no shutter shake. Sure, the images get slightly sharper as the speed increases, but you don't really expect a 600mm lens wide open to be as sharp at 1/20 of a second as at 1/800.

What is amazing (for me) is the absolute joy in being able to use the big 600 on this little camera with full AF through the Metabones adapter. It works really well and all the exif data comes through.

I can post samples if anybody is interested.

Pradeep

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hubell

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2014, 08:24:14 AM »

In regards to the menu and setting up the file, yes you can change the raw to anything you like, but when you start very close to your look, it's a lot easier to fine tune a file than to start 75% off.

I have NR to zero, sharpness knocked down, shading comp off,  I set the high fps at 6 because I don't think it track focuses if you are set higher than 6fps.

I change the color of the evf to more match my computer and there is a button with a curve function where I open up the shadows, close down the highlights.

I also set the viewfinder/lcd where the lcd is off when I shoot and to view an image i just hit the play button.  Sometimes the eye sensor can drive you crazy with it flicking back and forth from evf to lcd so I just turn off the lcd and it also saves on batteries.

IMO

BC


Doesn't Lightroom ignore the JPEG settings you use in the camera when you open the file in Lightroom as a raw?
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bcooter

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2014, 12:58:24 PM »

Doesn't Lightroom ignore the JPEG settings you use in the camera when you open the file in Lightroom as a raw?

I have no idea and no intention of finding out.  What I know is what I set in camera and see in the evf looks a lot like what comes up on the lightroom window.

Maybe I've got lucky and calibrated both camera and computer to match, maybe lightroom picks up the wb, saturation, curves I set.  Maybe lightroom combines the two images for review, like I said, I don't know, but I do know they match.

But . . . if the didn't I would also have the jpeg to use for reference.

BC


P.S.  

I've never seen shutter blur from both olympus . . . unless I go too far.  The in camera stabilization is good, so if the subject is static I find myself shooting at a slower shutter than I ever would try with other cameras and once you get by with 1/60th, you try 1/30th, etc. etc.

Addendum.   Just processed an em-5 image, son leaning in the car of father.  Shot in Northern California, s____y day, real overcast.   Shot at 1250 iso F 7, to pull focu on both subjects and shot at 1/20th (I think it said 1/20th).  Main subject tack sharp down to the eyelashes.

Crazy.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 01:11:22 AM by bcooter »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2014, 11:28:03 AM »

Lloyd Chambers just posted this.

Jim

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2014, 02:31:47 PM »

It seems to be a good initiative. Some well known names on that list!

Erik


Lloyd Chambers just posted this.

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2014, 02:50:29 PM »

It seems to be a good initiative. Some well known names on that list!

Erik, I think Lloyd and everybody else's hearts are in the right place, but I don't think this is the most effective possible vehicle. I donít think the argumentative tone of the petition in general, and the demand that Sony publicly call their baby ugly in particular, is useful. Itís quite possible that there is no firmware fix to be had (a few details on why I think that are here), and Sonyís announcing to the world that they are shipping a defective camera just isnít in the cards, especially since most users of the camera probably wonít detect that thereís anything wrong, and will love the pictures theyíre getting.

One of the things Ė and perhaps the most important thing Ė a petition could do is to open up a dialog between Sony and photographers that would result in Sonyís making better cameras in the future. To effect that end, the petition ought to make the Sony folks want to work with the photographers.

[I see Lloyd's post now has some things added that make it less threatening. A good thing, IMHO.]

Jim

« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:03:00 PM by Jim Kasson »
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The Photo Fundamentalist

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2014, 01:09:19 PM »

I'm getting just perceptible shutter shake with a 90mm Elmarit-M between 1/10 and 1/80th, with 1/20 to 1/60 being more evident. Its still subtle and not an image breaker.

I'm a bit surprised Chambers and co have found it with the 55 Sonnar, because with my 50 ZM planar, which is razor sharp at f5.6 on centre, refuses to show it. Maybe it something to do with the physical length of the lens (as the 50 ZM and 55 Sonnar are so close in focal length).

For a short lens user such as myself, I'm not remotely bothered by the shutter shake issue, but I can see why others might be.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2014, 04:35:13 AM »

Hi,

How are you holding and mounting the camera and lens?

Best
Regards



I'm getting just perceptible shutter shake with a 90mm Elmarit-M between 1/10 and 1/80th, with 1/20 to 1/60 being more evident. Its still subtle and not an image breaker.

I'm a bit surprised Chambers and co have found it with the 55 Sonnar, because with my 50 ZM planar, which is razor sharp at f5.6 on centre, refuses to show it. Maybe it something to do with the physical length of the lens (as the 50 ZM and 55 Sonnar are so close in focal length).

For a short lens user such as myself, I'm not remotely bothered by the shutter shake issue, but I can see why others might be.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2014, 04:45:02 AM »

Jim,

I see you point. Also, I agree from the data you show that there is no easy fix.

I am pretty sure that FP shutters cause some vibration. Conservation of momentum simply. I would argue the mounting point may play a role and also mass.

I don't know if an electronic first shutter helps a lot. There will be shake from the second shutter. Making the shutter moving more slowly would help, but that means longer synchronisation times.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, I think Lloyd and everybody else's hearts are in the right place, but I don't think this is the most effective possible vehicle. I donít think the argumentative tone of the petition in general, and the demand that Sony publicly call their baby ugly in particular, is useful. Itís quite possible that there is no firmware fix to be had (a few details on why I think that are here), and Sonyís announcing to the world that they are shipping a defective camera just isnít in the cards, especially since most users of the camera probably wonít detect that thereís anything wrong, and will love the pictures theyíre getting.

One of the things Ė and perhaps the most important thing Ė a petition could do is to open up a dialog between Sony and photographers that would result in Sonyís making better cameras in the future. To effect that end, the petition ought to make the Sony folks want to work with the photographers.

[I see Lloyd's post now has some things added that make it less threatening. A good thing, IMHO.]

Jim


Jim Kasson

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2014, 02:05:06 PM »

I am pretty sure that FP shutters cause some vibration. Conservation of momentum simply. I would argue the mounting point may play a role and also mass.

Absolutely. Here's the analysis of the physics of the effects on the image of vibration for the Pentax K-7. Much of the methodology and approach applies to any focal plane shutter camera. The same author argues here that rotation is always more important than translation when looking at shutter-shock effects, and thus your comment about the mounting point is right on.

With respect to mass, I've done a little three-part post, here, here, and here, that borrows from the methods employed by manufacturers of optical and other vibration-isolation tables. It turns out that, for a high-enough frequency forcing function, mass is the only material determinant of vibrational response to that forcing function; stiffness and damping, important at other frequencies, are swamped out.

I don't know if an electronic first shutter helps a lot. There will be shake from the second shutter. Making the shutter moving more slowly would help, but that means longer synchronisation times.

It helps in the a&7 (not R) in three ways. First, the shutter is wound when the shutter release is pressed, and doesn't need to be wound, eliminating the vibration associated with the electric motor that does the rewinding and the not-so-little- smack at the end of the rewinding, just before the first curtain is released. Second, there's no acceleration of the first curtain. Third, and probably more important in the a7R, there's no deceleration of the first curtain at the end of its travel. What would help as well as decreasing the minimum synch shutter speed is giving the shutter more distance to accelerate, and at the other end, more distance to decelerate, thus reducing the g-forces on the shutter. There may not be room in the camera to do that.

As to shake from the second shutter curtain, it's a little hard to tell. With the first curtain, and a test chart, you can see the effects of the first-curtain acceleration and the residual effects of the shutter winding by looking a blur with shutter speeds of 1/160 second and slower. You can see the effects of the deceleration of the first curtain only contaminated by the camera's response to the first two parts of the forcing function. With continuous lighting, you can see the effects of the second curtain acceleration only contaminated by everything else that happens before that, and attenuated by the image formed when the camera is relatively still between the two curtain firings.Of course, there are no visible effects of second curtain deceleration because the shutter is closed at that point.

In a reasonably successful attempt to isolate the second curtain effects and measure the first curtain effects by image blur, I made a series of exposures at various shutter speeds using trailing-curtain synch and a strobe with a 1/800 second t.1. By comparing the long-exposure second curtain synch images to ones made by triggering the strobe manually with the shutter open, I was able to see the effects of second-curtain acceleration in the a7R. They were minimal. I'm still not sure why. I plan to repeat the test with the D800E and its more massive shutter, and the Zeiss 135mm f/2 AP Sonnar, with its greater resolving power (or more accurately, its higher contrast at the resolution of th s7R's sensor).

Jim

Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2014, 02:25:29 PM »

I guess my particular way of using the A7r helps mitigate shutter shock all by itself.

ē Mostly handheld with a minimum 2x focal length Tv.
ē On a tripod I use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one.
ē Mostly smaller, lighter lenses...less forward mass for the shutter to set in motion.

-Dave-
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Jim Kasson

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2014, 03:49:13 PM »

I guess my particular way of using the A7r helps mitigate shutter shock all by itself.

I think you're right. See below.

ē Mostly handheld with a minimum 2x focal length Tv.

I haven't done a lot of handheld testing, since it's so hard to make it repeatable, but I think that at 1/(2*Focal length), the a7R's shutter shock will be smaller than camera motion from hand-holding. However, as the shutter speed goes up from there, the shutter shock will become relatively more important, since the forcing function has high-frequency components, and the hand motion is low in frequency. Also, when the camera is hand-held, there is unstiff coupling from the camera to your body, so your body mass is ineffective at adding mass to the camera, which is the best vibration-reduction technique at high frequencies.

[Added later. That said, I'd advise against using shutter speeds in the range 1/80 to 1/200, where you get the maximum effect of the first curtain acceleration and deceleration, whether the camera is on a tripod or not.]

ē On a tripod I use the camera's QR plate rather than a lens-mounted one.

Definitely a good thing. You want the part of the camera closest to the shutter -- as measured in the direction of the shutter motion -- to be the coupling point.

ē Mostly smaller, lighter lenses...less forward mass for the shutter to set in motion.

Yes, and those lenses tend to be shorter in focal length as well, so they magnify the rotational motion of the camera less, at least if you're not shooting near 1:1 reproduction ratio, at which point the focal length is not important in the blur calculation. Actually, at similar reproduction ratios, no matter what they are, the focal length isn't material.

So, subject to those quibbles, I agree with you.

Jim

« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 05:10:48 PM by Jim Kasson »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2014, 03:43:53 PM »

Hi,

Just a reflection:

In a way I feel the problem is overblown. With a mechanical shutter there will always be some vibration. I guess the A7r has some vibration problems but I also guess that it is no worse than many other systems.

On the other hand many users probably choose the A7r for resolution and probably want to achieve maximum resolution where shutter vibration is a problem.

Unsharpness from vibration may probably easier to measure than to see.

So I think the problem is there, may be hard to observe, but matters to those in search of the optimum image quality.

Best regards
Erik

I think you're right. See below.

I haven't done a lot of handheld testing, since it's so hard to make it repeatable, but I think that at 1/(2*Focal length), the a7R's shutter shock will be smaller than camera motion from hand-holding. However, as the shutter speed goes up from there, the shutter shock will become relatively more important, since the forcing function has high-frequency components, and the hand motion is low in frequency. Also, when the camera is hand-held, there is unstiff coupling from the camera to your body, so your body mass is ineffective at adding mass to the camera, which is the best vibration-reduction technique at high frequencies.

[Added later. That said, I'd advise against using shutter speeds in the range 1/80 to 1/200, where you get the maximum effect of the first curtain acceleration and deceleration, whether the camera is on a tripod or not.]

Definitely a good thing. You want the part of the camera closest to the shutter -- as measured in the direction of the shutter motion -- to be the coupling point.

Yes, and those lenses tend to be shorter in focal length as well, so they magnify the rotational motion of the camera less, at least if you're not shooting near 1:1 reproduction ratio, at which point the focal length is not important in the blur calculation. Actually, at similar reproduction ratios, no matter what they are, the focal length isn't material.

So, subject to those quibbles, I agree with you.

Jim


Stefan.Steib

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #97 on: February 05, 2014, 05:47:23 PM »

@Erik and all

I have read this thread for some time and looked at this by myself, first on the A7/A7r bodies I had for my recent article and now on my own A7r.

In short - nothing can beat mass ! The heavier the lens is, the easier it is to achieve a sharper image handheld. The camera alone is very light, the resolution is high.
The frequency of the system seems to be in a status of easy induction of movement when the damping and counterbalance is missing.

I have also got the battery grip, this alone does plenty on the subject, shifting the system frequency. Funnily I suspect it is because the connection to the body is more or less
flexible, even when you tighten the screw to the body, you can stil bend the two parts against each other. Light build and misunderstood engineering I would say, in this case
, by incident it helps ! So does holding the lens supporting it from the bottom compared shooting holding the camera with both hands and letting the lens "swing" to the induced
shutter movement.

I have made a decision (and already taken action) now: I am building a support part for the Sony A7/7r that will allow secure shooting without shutter induced vibration.
The first prototype is already in the works, I will post, when I have a definite result.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 06:07:25 PM by Stefan.Steib »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2014, 06:02:05 PM »

Hi,

Just a reflection:

In a way I feel the problem is overblown. With a mechanical shutter there will always be some vibration. I guess the A7r has some vibration problems but I also guess that it is no worse than many other systems.

On the other hand many users probably choose the A7r for resolution and probably want to achieve maximum resolution where shutter vibration is a problem.

While the problem is perhaps a little overblown, it is very real and the second statement above to me is key.  Sony has designed this camera for very discriminating photographers who are looking for maximum quality.

Iím not sure there is another camera which employs a shutter like the a7r where the shutter has to close then immediately open.  Iím sure there are some, but being full frame adds to the problem because the shutter itself is larger and has more mass.

Iím currently testing my d800e body along side the a7r.  The expectation is they should achieve near equal image quality.  Using a longer lens they donít unless you take measures to manage the vibration.  On shorter lens Iím still not sure, but certainly less of a problem.

In my particular case, I am sticking with the a7r because I can pretty much eliminate the shutter vibration issues in a couple of ways, and the main appeal to me is freedom to use any glass I want. Since much of that glass is smaller/lighter, carrying things like a long lens support from RRS or even adding some dead weight ala Joseph Holmes, Iím still lighter, smaller and more flexible.

In fact, thatís the problem Iím facing now ... just what lenses do I want to use/buy, now that I can use Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon as well as a bunch of others all of the same sensor.

peterottaway

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2014, 08:43:27 PM »

One of the things that's rarely brought up with the concern over the A7r shutter shake is how this compares to the combination of shutter shake and mirror slap on conventional SLR cameras. In comparison to having to use MLU as in the past this is a bonus of the SLT and mirror less cameras. Although it may not always matter, having a reasonable proximation of WYSIWYG is both comforting and an advantage.

I do happen to own a tabletop tripod, a monopod and two tripods ( one aluminium and one carbon fibre ) with a geared head and 3 different size / weight classes ball heads. So even when basically shooting hand held I have some extra support. Like others I also have the grip / second battery compartment.

Other than this it is largely just a matter of noting the reported speed range and avoiding where possible.

PS To avoid an allergic reaction amongst the EVF phobes I have not mentioned the other advantages of the SLT design.
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