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Author Topic: A7r Shutter shake!!!  (Read 50540 times)

peterottaway

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 08:24:21 PM »

I hate to sound like an aged auditor picking through minor lapses as if they are the end of the world problems. The A7r shutter at certain shutter speeds and with certain lens types may induce enough additional vibration to compromise image quality.

When used hand held this will be in addition to the natural shake from the photographer. On a tripod this will be like most things dependent of the quality of the tripod, the tripod head, the amount of central column extension used, whether it is the camera or the lens that is attached to the tripod etc and more etc

And of course those photographers who choose to anchor their tripod with a bag or a modified bean bag weight will wonder what most of the fuss is about
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synn

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2014, 03:41:33 AM »

This "Shutter issue" is like revisiting the D800 AF issue all over again. Tons of internet amplification, no big deal in real life for most people.
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Deep

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2014, 07:13:00 PM »

There's a similar thread to this on another forum about shutter shake on the Olympus  EM1.  I also hear it's quite noticeable on the Panasonic GX1.  Having just bought an EM1 (in preference to the Sony A7, which I loved, which was cheaper and lighter - work that out, oh yes, I can get long but little lenses for the Olympus!) I can confirm the issue is real.  The first body was unusable at 1/60 with any lens.  The second body I tried was better but still had the problem.  Finally I tried one out of a new shipment and it was better.  Actually, if I hadn't had the problem with the first one I might have just thought I did something wrong and got slightly fuzzy images sometimes.  It's just visible at 1/60 of a second, the worst speed.

This is relevant to this discussion because the EM1 allows you to choose between a conventional shutter like the A7r or an electronic first curtain, like the A7.  Using the latter option hugely improves the situation, which makes me think that is why the A7r is so much worse than the A7.  In use, the A7 has a smooth and fairly quiet shutter action, the A7r much less so, which is odd because the slightly higher resolution is likely to be less tolerant to shutter shake.

In the case of the EM1, a super-solid tripod (Manfrotto 058) is able to completely eliminate visible shutter shake, as seen at the pixel level.
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Don

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2014, 08:31:16 PM »

I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-
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bcooter

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2014, 09:51:05 PM »

I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-

The A7 I tested (actually two out of three) would blur at 100th of a second with a 100mm lens and i;m pretty steady.  The em-5 and em-1 I tested next to it, I could use a 75mm lens (150mm in the real world) at 60th to 100th and it was as sharp as a tack, plus the em5 is dead smooth and quiet.  Produces a pretty sound when you shoot like a film camera, just more quiet.

Now the test I did was trying to get the A7 to have the same dof as the em-5 rather than the other way around, which means it took twice the iso to get close.

Actually to test these things is to shoot what you shoot.   I know when I first tested the em-5 against my 1dx just shooting stuff in my office, I was positive the 1dx was a much better file, but in the real world, shooting what was pretty, the opposite happened.

I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, though the em-1 is a slightly better camera with a PC connector and if low light is your deal the em-1 is good for one more stop,  though I find the ergonomics of the little em-5 better and easier to work, (though a little small).

This week I processed out 240 files from a recent shoot (most a motion video project) and shot 200 of the selects with the 1dx and about 40 with the em-5.   

I chickened out with the em-5 because it's hard to believe a small camera with a small sensor can be so good and I know the Canon system sleeping.   

Crazy thing is in lightroom the em-5 file just blows the Canon 1dx away.  (I know, nobody will believe it, but who cares, I know what I see).   The 1dx has that weird global color, plastic cmos look where the em-5 colors and separate and detailed and the noise is pretty, once you get the processing down.  Actually the noise is virtually the same as the 1dx up to 800, (just slightly larger), but it's just crazy that it shoots so pretty. 

People passing my computer as i worked would stop when I was working an em-5 file and go "wow that's pretty" and I'm show them the same session with the 1dx and they'd go hmm, that looks kind of digital normal.

If only (there is always an if only) the em-5 would track focus as well as the gh3's or the em-1 and only if the olympus would TETHER  (yes that was a yell).

It ook me a while to get use to the em series, because they are just so different than most ovf and way different than the gh3 which is bog easy to use, but once I got use to the functions, the buttons, got it set up the way I liked (it takes weeks to figure this out), I just love those little olympus, especially with the added viewfinder on top.  That swivel viewfinder is the best thing that ever happened to digital photography and I can focus with it so much easier.

IMO

BC

Deep

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2014, 11:00:08 PM »

I've taken hundreds of photos with the E-M5 & E-M1 at all the "problem" shutter speeds, at various times over the past nine months, and have seen precisely nothing indicating shutter shock. I don't doubt some folks are experiencing it. But my guess is it's a sample-specific issue and not a ubiquitous one. As usual, though, 'Net discussion defaults to an all-or-nothing scenario and thus the actual facts of the matter get obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if the A7r vibration issue (which I also have yet to see but don't doubt the existence of) turns out to be as much sample variation as anything else.

-Dave-
Yup, sample variation is just what I noted!  A tiny little camera like that with a high speed shutter is probably hard to make without some shutter shake somewhere and the weight and balance of the lens must make some difference.  It's virtually no issue at all with my 12-40 but, as I go longer, it gets more visible.  Still, the body I ended up with is good enough and, otherwise, the image quality is truly amazing.  I absolutely can't envisage any sort of work I could do which would require anything better.  I'm as happy as a pig in the proverbial but not blind to the compromises involved in making these little jewels.
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Don

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2014, 11:48:29 PM »

BC, with the A7r I've been mostly using 2x focal length shutter speeds minimum just to be safe, though I have tried the Zeiss 100/2 at 1/125th sec. with no issues. It's a relatively heavy lens for its focal length & speed, which may help (when handholding, that is, as the camera itself is so light). I like this camera a lot, though it is kinda rough around the edges whereas the Oly m43 cams are refined. Still working on getting an out-of-camera look I like too. Dynamic range with all these recent cameras is scary good compared to just a few years ago...in the Sony's case it's easy to end up with something that looks more Log-C than pretty.

Deep, ah okay, I got 'cha.   :)

-Dave-
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Deep

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2014, 11:57:55 PM »

BC, with the A7r I've been mostly using 2x focal length shutter speeds minimum just to be safe, though I have tried the Zeiss 100/2 at 1/125th sec. with no issues. It's a relatively heavy lens for its focal length & speed, which may help (when handholding, that is, as the camera itself is so light). I like this camera a lot, though it is kinda rough around the edges whereas the Oly m43 cams are refined. Still working on getting an out-of-camera look I like too. Dynamic range with all these recent cameras is scary good compared to just a few years ago...in the Sony's case it's easy to end up with something that looks more Log-C than pretty.

Deep, ah okay, I got 'cha.   :)

-Dave-
Interesting what you say about the dynamic range thing.  I took some raw files home from both the A7 and A7r and found the A7r files quite hard to get a good look out of.  I know that, technically, it's good to have all that information to work with and more skilled people will produce some brilliance but, honestly, the A7 files were so much easier to use, for me personally.  I took the same photos using the same settings and lens, so it was a fair comparison.  As I said above, I loved the A7 and may yet find one in my bag, though I am not made of money...
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Don

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2014, 05:10:05 PM »

Interesting what you say about the dynamic range thing. I took some raw files home from both the A7 and A7r and found the A7r files quite hard to get a good look out of. I know that, technically, it's good to have all that information to work with and more skilled people will produce some brilliance but, honestly, the A7 files were so much easier to use, for me personally. I took the same photos using the same settings and lens, so it was a fair comparison. As I said above, I loved the A7 and may yet find one in my bag, though I am not made of money...

To be fair I've been using neutral settings so far with the A7r (no RAW processing yet), which result in a surprisingly flat look. My previous Sony experience led me to expect exaggerated color unless I dialed everything down, so I guess I'll have to adjust.   :)  There's a ton of latitude there, though, even in the JPEGs.

-Dave-
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allegretto

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2014, 01:41:59 PM »

The A7 I tested (actually two out of three) would blur at 100th of a second with a 100mm lens and i;m pretty steady.  The em-5 and em-1 I tested next to it, I could use a 75mm lens (150mm in the real world) at 60th to 100th and it was as sharp as a tack, plus the em5 is dead smooth and quiet.  Produces a pretty sound when you shoot like a film camera, just more quiet.

Now the test I did was trying to get the A7 to have the same dof as the em-5 rather than the other way around, which means it took twice the iso to get close.

Actually to test these things is to shoot what you shoot.   I know when I first tested the em-5 against my 1dx just shooting stuff in my office, I was positive the 1dx was a much better file, but in the real world, shooting what was pretty, the opposite happened.

I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, though the em-1 is a slightly better camera with a PC connector and if low light is your deal the em-1 is good for one more stop,  though I find the ergonomics of the little em-5 better and easier to work, (though a little small).

This week I processed out 240 files from a recent shoot (most a motion video project) and shot 200 of the selects with the 1dx and about 40 with the em-5.   

I chickened out with the em-5 because it's hard to believe a small camera with a small sensor can be so good and I know the Canon system sleeping.   

Crazy thing is in lightroom the em-5 file just blows the Canon 1dx away.  (I know, nobody will believe it, but who cares, I know what I see).   The 1dx has that weird global color, plastic cmos look where the em-5 colors and separate and detailed and the noise is pretty, once you get the processing down.  Actually the noise is virtually the same as the 1dx up to 800, (just slightly larger), but it's just crazy that it shoots so pretty. 

People passing my computer as i worked would stop when I was working an em-5 file and go "wow that's pretty" and I'm show them the same session with the 1dx and they'd go hmm, that looks kind of digital normal.

If only (there is always an if only) the em-5 would track focus as well as the gh3's or the em-1 and only if the olympus would TETHER  (yes that was a yell).

It ook me a while to get use to the em series, because they are just so different than most ovf and way different than the gh3 which is bog easy to use, but once I got use to the functions, the buttons, got it set up the way I liked (it takes weeks to figure this out), I just love those little olympus, especially with the added viewfinder on top.  That swivel viewfinder is the best thing that ever happened to digital photography and I can focus with it so much easier.

IMO

BC



Nope, can't be. With your lowly DR or ~12 it is not as good as the D800 and we all know this since we went to DxO and looked it up. There is no point in arguing for the Oly or Canon, they are inferior, your pictures aren't as good as you think. In fact, they suck and clients won't even look at them once they have seen D800 files cuz you don't have enough MP or DR. Now if you had a D800 or A7r you would have better pictures. You could crop and down-res and all kinds of cool things that you can't do unless you have a D800 or A7r. And you think you're a proÖ?

j/k of course... ;), but that seems to be the point of many posts around here.
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DanLehman

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »

Quote
I'll go on record and say the em-5 shoots the prettiest file I've ever seen out of a cmos camera.   Nothing like my Nikon D3, or any of my Canons especially the 1dx.

Actually the em-5 produces a better file (to me better means prettier) than the em-1, ...

BC, where does the GH3 fall, then, in you appreciation of files?
(IIRC, it was from the GH3 that you had summarized that you'd
come 'round a full circle to the smaller size, with still quality on the
order of 1Ds-II or so; this would see it arrears of the 1Dx, E-M1/5, then?)

Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor
to the GH3's?

--dl*
====
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leuallen

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2014, 09:14:50 PM »

Maybe I am a dunce or not very observant or critical but I have EM5, EM1, GH3, and GX7 and I cannot tell very much difference between them. Except that I like the GX7 color a little better. I don't do comparisons just shoot pictures and in that context see little difference.

Larry
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2014, 10:20:00 PM »

Maybe I am a dunce or not very observant or critical but I have EM5, EM1, GH3, and GX7 and I cannot tell very much difference between them.
GH3 has a quite thick AA filter (video needs) and EM1 does not have it at all... easy to notice (with proper lens)... I have both cameras.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2014, 10:23:01 PM »

Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor to the GH3's?
it hasn't... GH3 has a sensor from Sony, GX7 apparently has its from Panasonic itself... it is not there yet, readout noise in Sony sensors it still better... so with the better implementations of Sony sensor (like in Olympus cameras - E-M1, etc) GX7 sensor still worse, with worse implemenations (like in Panasonic's own GH3 - which might be explained by the fact that GH3 targets video crowd) it is on par...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:27:41 PM by Vladimirovich »
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leuallen

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2014, 10:36:27 PM »

Point is if you don't shoot a comparison image with another camera and the image you got satisfies you, what is the difference? If the image I got satisfies me what is the point that it might be a little sharper with another camera. In fact I find that in some shots the increased sharpness detracts from the pictorial effect. Don't get me wrong there are shots of a type that require tack sharp sharpness and others where it matters not a a whit. I tend to shoot a lot of the latter. That is why I have all those cameras and expensive lenses, horses for courses. I still feel that in the end there is little significant difference between them.

Larry
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Telecaster

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2014, 01:03:08 AM »

I own an E-M1 and a GX7...there's very little visible difference between the two image quality-wise. Under careful scrutiny the GX7 is a bit noisier at higher ISOs but this doesn't show up at all in prints or in 1440x1080 screen display. Despite the E-M1's better build quality and greater versatility it's the GX7 I enjoy using more. The rangefinder-style profile and VF location have won me over.   :)

-Dave-
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bcooter

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2014, 03:40:46 AM »

BC, where does the GH3 fall, then, in you appreciation of files?
(IIRC, it was from the GH3 that you had summarized that you'd
come 'round a full circle to the smaller size, with still quality on the
order of 1Ds-II or so; this would see it arrears of the 1Dx, E-M1/5, then?)

Any experience w/GX7, which has yet a further improved m43 sensor
to the GH3's?

--dl*
====


hi.

I don't have a 7 but have taken a thousand images with the em-5 next to the canon 1dx, a few hundred next to the em-1 and thousands of the gh3 stills next to all of the cameras I just mentioned.

IMo the em-5 is bette rthan the 1dx expcept for very igh iso and track focus.   For regular focus it's amazing in high and low light, very fast and a beautiful file.

The gh3 is softer, due to video, make a pretty file, (think 5d3 without the red faced color tones, more out of the camera brown, though fairly saturated, though it can be customized.

The problem with the gh3 for stills is at 800 iso and  higher say 2000 it doesn't get pretty noise, it gets this kind ofa painterly look, even with noise reduction turned way down or off, especially next to the em-5 olympus.

The em-5 up to 1000 or so is very pretty noise, much like 1,000 iso film and with NR  turned off, the raws are workable and very pretty.  The depth of the file is much nicer than the canon 1dx, (the camera I can compare it with the most).

Now the em-5 vs. the em-1 I don't have huge experience with but the em-5 up to 1,000 I believe is prettier, actually much prettier, regardless of test samples.   The em-1 is a better camera and goes to 2,000 iso easier, but loses some of that film like look at the same settings.   The em-5 really has a superior look (imo).

The difference is usability between the two (the em-1 and em-5) is just the usability.  If you add a vf-4 finder (which I recommend for both cameras, the em-5 loses the ability to fire a flash because there is no pc connection like the em-1 and the em-5 is just slightly small, not too small but bordering on too small.

There are other slight differences between the two and I've read the em-1 actually has 15 usable mpx vs. the em-5 16 due to the pdaf sensor for legacy 43 focus lenses.   I don't know if that's true, but once again I see a difference in the look and given my use I'd rather shoot the em-5 than the em-1 in regards to the look of the file.  

The file really, really, really is pretty on the em-5.

The autofocus lens line up for the m43 system is excellent and getting better.  A nocton 1.4 pana is out (great lens, a 1.2 42 mm leica lenses is due out soon (though expensive).  All oly primes are sharp and the panasonic 2.8 lenses are sharp and pretty, though 2.8 is a little slow for this format.

The gh3 track focuses well, the em-1 next as good, the em-5 not as good.

My suggestion is the em-5 if you don't need a pc slot and you add the right angle grip to add some size.  Both olympus are very well built to a level of leica S quality. and both complicated to set up but very pretty files (though once again the em-5 wins).

Set both olys to nr off, 6fps max for follow focus, tune the turn curve to hold highlghts and open shadows, used portrait setting as a base then turn down saturation, contrast.

Then you'll have a beautiful file.  Also set the evf to more match your computer taking out the green and addings a light amount of warmth.

The gh3 I only use as movie cameras now, though they are very good little movie cameras.

I bought the em-5 only to use the legacy 43 lenses (especially the 150 f2), and for the pc slot, to free up the hot shoe for the vf 4 viewfinder.

If I didn't need those I'd buy two em-5s adn I love that camera.

I'd put the em-5 look next to any camera I've ever used, even to medium format and not for detail but for look.

In lightroom  the file just sings.

IMO

BC

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2014, 12:46:44 PM »

I have been reading this thread with great interest, since I tried the A7 and the DF with the intention of possibly finding something better than my EM5.

In my much less experienced opinion, I think bc is right on about the beauty of the EM5 files. The one thing I would add to his comments is that there are certain lenses, that at least for me, work better than others with this sensor and processor. Personally, I think the Pana/leica 25/1.4 and Oly 60/2.8 work really, really well with this sensor and processor. I sold off most of the others after switching to the Ricoh GR for wide angle.

Responding to the OP about shutter shock. I only tried the A7 with a Sony rep in a local shop, and came away being unsure about it and the A7r.

What I am more sure about is that even with the EM5, I had issues with blur at certain speeds my first year with it, but after getting used to physically stabilizing the super small and light body, and learning the speeds and types of movement that the IBIS system sometimes doesn't deal so well with, I am getting really sharp images consistently.

For me, the best learning experience was putting the Oly 75-300 lens on, extending it to 600mm equivalent and trying to get really sharp bird shots at a local nature area. At first I couldn't get the feathers to be sharp even with a tripod, but after working on it for a while, I put together camera settings and technique good enough to even capture auto-alignable HDR stacks using 9fps burst mode hand held if needed.

The thing is, I get a definite impression that small and light cameras, just don't have enough mass to make super sharp image captures without some help. Going out and shooting with an old F3 that i can't bring myself to get rid of reminded me about the physics of the situation. Suffice it to say that a >900g body does not have a shutter shock issue even holding it one handed and panning while you shoot (although I am not always as critical about sharpness with film as a sensor, so that may contribute a bit).

On a related note, has anyone compared the Sonys or the latest OMD to the Pentax K-3?

It splits the difference between m43 and FF sensors, boosts sharpness due to adjustable AA filter, and has what seems to be an effective IBIS system. If the noise levels and color rendition are not worse than the GR, then this could be a significant step up from the OMD in image quality for larger prints without giving up too much of the usability advantage of the smaller mirrorless cameras. Plus you get better tracking AF and extremely solid construction. IMO it looks like the best designed OMD competitor in the DSLR camp.
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Glenn NK

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Re:
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2014, 01:27:07 PM »

so what your saying is someone at sony blew it and didnít get the design criteria right . . .

I'm getting back to this thread a bit late . . .

I wasn't commenting on any brand specifically, and certainly not Sony as I have no feelings or opinions either way, so I'm not suggesting they blew it (and I don't know what the design criteria were).

I have more faith in designers than I have in marketers that have the power to rush out a product before it's ready in order to gain traction in the market.  I suspect (probably not alone in this) that products are often pushed out before they are ready (which brings into play another whole set of arguments - what does "ready" mean).

regards,

Glenn
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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2014, 04:46:41 PM »

IMO the comments here re. weight, stability and small cameras are right on. The A7r: love the size, no issues with the shape but it needs to have the heft of a Leica (or thereabouts). When you're handholding at slow-ish shutter speeds there's no inertial ballast to help you keep steady. Every tiny movement you make gets mainlined right to the lens. The clunky shutter doesn't help but IMO the camera's (lack of) mass is a more significant issue, especially given its high-res capability. Still on the fence as to whether I'll hang with this system for awhile and see what happens...or just move it on. I seem to be in binge mode right now, though, so I guess the purge will come later rather than sooner.   :-X  (In my defense I bought no camera gear between late 2007 and early 2013.)

I've also returned to the E-M5 as my main Oly camera. I agree with what BC says re. image quality. But the clincher for me is the handling. With the aux. grip (minus the bottom part) everything just falls comfortably under my fingertips. The E-M1, as solid as it is, doesn't have the same feeling of rightness. I do wish the E-M5 allowed the E-M1's smaller focus points without having to use the manual focus rectangle workaround.

Ain't no perfect camera.

-Dave-
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