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Author Topic: A7r Shutter shake!!!  (Read 50461 times)

jhemp

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A7r Shutter shake!!!
« on: December 20, 2013, 04:46:56 PM »

I must say I'm feeling pretty low right now.  I cannot fathom why Sony left out the option of an Electronic first curtain shutter on the a7r to reduce shutter shake.   What is the point of a 36mp camera then??? I have found over a week of shooting with the camera it has been unreliable working from a tripod shooting at lower shutter speeds, 160th and lower.  Sometimes it spits out good shots in that shutter range, but it misses more.  I always work slow with my cameras, and am very tedious about nailing focus, and if I'm not sure I focus bracket.  I just cannot count on the camera to produce, therefore it has to go, it is not a pro system!  It's too bad, because when the camera does deliver it's wonderful.

Example, yesterday I was taking pictures of a church exterior and I took three identical images with identical camera settings.  I had manual focus on and 10 sec delay and it was super still outside.  All three were at iso 100 1/80th @ f8.  Two of them where slightly blurred and the third was ok.  Very frustrating!!

Sorry to come here and vent, I don't want to sound like a troll but I figured people on this forum should know my experience.  So I'm sticking with my Sony a99 for a bit longer.

Dale_Cotton2

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 04:48:24 PM »

Just to be sure: have you tried things like a beanbag and foot stirrup to damp vibrations?
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uaiomex

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 05:04:18 PM »

I'm holding my purchase till this thing is solved or better yet, I'll wait for another more advance camera. Good thing, I can wait.                                                                                                                                              

Eduardo
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jhemp

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »

I did not try a bean bag or foot stirrup.  I followed the same methodology I have always used since shooting 4x5. If I have to go beyond a sturdy tripod with careful thought put into getting solid footing and remote release then the camera is too fussy for my use and not consistent    This is the first camera I've used that shutter vibration continues to be an issue even after I have taken careful care to mitigate the problem.  That said, the shutter vibration only seemed to happen at certain shutter speeds 1/80 - 1/160th is what I noticed, and it doesn't happen every time in those speeds either.  You can also see on some online sites that clearly show the same issue I was having, especially Llyod Chambers.    Shutter blur is small but just knowing its there bugs me to know end!

When Sony puts this sensor in a camera with Inbody Image Stabilization and EFCS like the a99 then I'll jump all over it.  I could care less about form factor, I'll go with another DSLR or A7 type camera.

Jay

stever

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2013, 10:43:01 PM »

I won't dump on Sony - over the last 4 years (and probably longer) as every camera manufacturer has had one or more instances of - did anyone review the design and check the numbers? and - did anyone test the product?  However, it does not inspire confidence in Sony engineering or actual photographic testing and use of the product. 

And another reason why I'm not first in line to buy the newest greatest.
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Paul2660

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 09:46:54 AM »

You can find more testing, on the Lloyd Chambers pay site.  He had done the usual detailed tests that he does and posted the empirical results.  Basically it seems due to the shutter design of the A7r, which is different than the A7, you can possibly have shutter vibration which can effect your image. 

Testers on this site and the crew over at www.getdpi.com don't seem to feel it's as big a issue as some are finding it to be a slight problem others not. 

Not too sure I agree with some of the answers that state, "it's basically a 36MP sensor and vibrations are just a part of the deal".  Having a D800e and D800,  and well over 20K exposures between the two, vibration issues have yet to show up for me.  This is true throughout the entire shutter speed range especially in the ranges that seem to be problematic.  I would also state that hand holding/ or on tripod doesn't seem to matter.   

However it's just one of those issues that everyone has to judge for themselves I guess.

Paul Caldwell
 
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KirbyKrieger

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 10:25:03 AM »

michael

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 11:13:14 AM »

I never saw the problem because I never shot with any lens over 90mm.

My bad.

The problem sure seems real though.

Michael
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 11:52:31 AM »

I never saw the problem because I never shot with any lens over 90mm.

The issue is reported with both 55mm sony-zeiss and the 50/2 APO-SUMMICRON. To put this into context, Diglloyd on a 180mm lens, calculates a ~ 1pixel blur (equating to a camera displacement of about 5 microns) in landscape orientation. On the blog he doesn't disclose at what shutter speeds the issue is noticeable.

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20131220_1-Sony55f1_8-aseries-RedBarn.html
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Herbc

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 11:59:18 AM »

Actually, Lloyd has come out with a statement that he has contacted Sony and in the meantime he finds 1/200 or higher to not have the problem.

Considering all the focus issues Nikon had with the D800, this does not seem like a permanent problem.
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Manoli

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 12:11:42 PM »

Actually, Lloyd has come out with a statement that he has contacted Sony and in the meantime he finds 1/200 or higher to not have the problem.

Before this turns into an M8-revisited issue, Michael's article was neither a review of the A7r nor a review of of Leica M lenses. " Rather, this is just a report on how a specific set of seven lenses (the ones I own) work together with the new A7r. "

Jim Kasson is testing and reporting extensively on the vibration issue on his blog - 'The Last Word'.
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photodan

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 05:29:33 PM »

I haven't noticed any shutter vibration issues when using the camera on a tripod with the 35mm f/2.8 Sony lens, but I sure did with the 70-400mm zoom (shot via the alpha to e-mount adapter). I returned the zoom. 

I wonder if an image stabilized lens like the forthcoming 70-200mm f/4 Sony-E-mount IS lens would mitigate the vibration issue or not.

It amazes me that Sony would put such technological creativity and skill into a key product and not test some basic factors, like, hey Sony, how about shooting with a long lens at various shutter speeds and then looking at the results carefully?

The shutter of the A7r is different from that of the A7 and that would seem to be a reason to focus some testing attention on the shutter, including the effects of vibration.  I wonder if they did do this and either didnít test carefully or even worse, that they thought the results (of a long lens shot at speeds near 1/125) were acceptable.  Then again, how about the pro photographers doing the beta testing on camera prototypes?

Come to think of it, I wonder if Sony has been asked by any of the news media (camera magazines and other) camera reviewers why the shutter is different on the two cameras and what the relative advantages and disadvantages might be. Well, Iím sure many companies wouldnít speak to disadvantages, but surely someone has tried to ask the question. Perhaps no useful answer were forthcoming.

With slightly long lenses - those that donít require a tripod foot, perhaps using my old Pentax 6x7 shutter vibration mitigation technique might help in some of the time.  It only worked with a tripod and was not totally consistent, but it did make a significant difference.  For shutter speeds from 1/4 to 1/60 of a second (the biggest problem area). I used to use mirror lock up and then put both hands on top of the camera body and push down with steady pressure, and using a finger on my right hand push the shutter button. After the exposure was over I would then release the pressure. Itís not really a good solution however, and I hope that Sony comes up with a firmware change that will reduce or eliminate the issue.

I am suffering a little bit of buyerís remorse because of this issue, and it is compounded (although to a minor extent) by the possibility that the raw files are cooked via compression (or factors that results in various minor artifacts, such as circular bands of color shifts that can be sometimes seen when cranking up the contrast and saturation to a very large non-practical degree).  Iíve personally seen a little bit of these artifacts however I havenít found them to be of any significance at all (yet, at any rate). But, if the files are truly lossy compressed, then what on earth was Sony thinking? The a7r is a 36mp camera, without an anti-aliasing filter, with contrast detection focus only (therefore moderate to slow focus speed only  should be expected; surely this is not meant to be a camera for sports shooting), therefore the main objective of the camera would be to obtain the highest image quality possible, right? And therefore, while a high frame rates would be nice, it shouldn't get in the way of allowing the highest image quality to be obtained. So, then why bother compressing the raw files? 

This stuff just makes no sense.
 
As I write this I am getting myself more and more ticked, and probably losing perspective. But, combined with the fact that, as good and wonderfully functional as the EVF is, I much prefer looking through a good optical viewfinder of a DSLR, and I have the urge to tank the Sony and go back to a full frame DSLR.  But if I switch back then thereís the problem with having to deal with large and heavy lenses that are difficult to manually focus accurately, having to fine tune the micro focus of each AF lens;  the lousy live view of the Nikon D800E,  or the lower resolution and poorer dynamic range of the Canons. Hey, itís no wonder more and more people are using just camera phones.  No spending mega bucks and toting separate cameras around, no worries about exact focus or depth of field, sharpness optional, general image quality an esoteric subject,  speed of shooting not important, no complicated processing of files,  no prints to be made,  no nothing  :-) 
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algrove

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 05:40:50 PM »

My shutter vibrations on long lenses were so bad that I sent it back. I even had shutter vibration ruin Leica R 15/2.8 shots. Side by side with the M240 there IS a BIG difference to me.
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bill t.

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 05:51:40 PM »

Wait a minute, how long was I telling myself "wow here's a killer camera that FINALLY beats the old mirror-slap bugaboo!"  This just isn't fair, and to think I waited for this!  Oh well, off to order the D800, delivery by xmas at B&H.  One can always build multipoint supports out of plywood boxes etc but that sort of messes with the tiny-is-better paradigm.
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Paul2660

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 06:10:23 PM »

You will love the D800/e.  Free shipping is a great deal too.

Paul
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vjbelle

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 08:00:25 AM »

The problem is real..... as has been reported by many.  But.... it should be fixable.  I'm encouraged by the lack of any vibration with shutter speeds greater than 1 second and by 1/250 its all gone for me and my Leica 90mm Summicron.  Sony asked me for sample files which were sent last week.  So..... they are aware and hopefully a fix is on the way.

Victor
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philbond87

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 10:26:54 AM »

I don't doubt that the issue is real. The shutter is loud and clunky Ė we had this issue with some SLRs (35mm and MF).
However I've not yet been able to recreate it myself with the following gear Ė at any shutter speed:

  • Metabones 3 adapter
  • Canon lenses: 17TS-E, 24TS-E, 50/1.4, 85/1.8
  • Induro tripod with Manfrotto 410 head (with Arca-Swiss conversion

I realize that the majority of people reporting problems are using longer lenses, however this is what I shoot with on this camera. I will not be using it with longer lenses.
I know that for many this will not be the case but I offer my experience to help others in making their decisions.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 05:16:28 PM »

 I cannot fathom why Sony left out the option of an Electronic first curtain shutter on the a7r to reduce shutter shake.  

I believe itís inherent in the design of this particular sensor, as the d800 does not have a electronic first curtain either.  The d800 shutter seems to have more dampening, but the main difference is the shutter does not have to close before opening like it does on the sony. This is why live view focusing in place of mirror up does not work on a d800 but works better than MLU on a Canon camera.

It seems some firmware changes could help this for some shooters by adding a delay between the close of the shutter and start of the exposure.  Also having the shutter close at the beginning of a self timer cycle might be an option.

But as much as I like this camera so far, Iím getting more and more concerned with this issue, and believe sony maybe should have designed a better shutter.  Or figured out a new sensor that allows electronic first curtain.

uaiomex

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2013, 09:38:28 PM »

+1


I believe itís inherent in the design of this particular sensor, as the d800 does not have a electronic first curtain either.  The d800 shutter seems to have more dampening, but the main difference is the shutter does not have to close before opening like it does on the sony. This is why live view focusing in place of mirror up does not work on a d800 but works better than MLU on a Canon camera.

It seems some firmware changes could help this for some shooters by adding a delay between the close of the shutter and start of the exposure.  Also having the shutter close at the beginning of a self timer cycle might be an option.

But as much as I like this camera so far, Iím getting more and more concerned with this issue, and believe sony maybe should have designed a better shutter.  Or figured out a new sensor that allows electronic first curtain.
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Chris_Brown

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Re: A7r Shutter shake!!!
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2013, 10:23:07 PM »

Article on Sony Alpha Rumors as well.

FTA:
Quote
Further, Mike and I have shown that attaching a certain amount of weight to the camera can solve the problem completely. We are building 24-ounce weights (including the weight of a small, Arca-Swiss type screw-knob clamp, the L-plate and a metal block) to connect to the base of the camera when using longer lenses, especially when they are not native lenses with the camera connected directly to the tripod. I tested a 26-ounce weight, screwed to the bottom of the camera for horizontal exposures and found it highly effective.

For its price (among other criteria), this solution is unacceptable. One of the beauties of the camera is its small size and low weight.
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~ CB
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