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Author Topic: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations  (Read 7383 times)

JerryReed

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Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« on: December 19, 2013, 08:08:48 am »

This morning, I ordered a quad-core Mac Pro for delivery in January.  This design provides rapid data communication via Thunderbolt 2 to external storage.  I am not using the Mac Pro for video, just replacing an old Mac Pro which I use for Photoshop and still images.

There are so many well informed professionals who visit this site, I would welcome your recommendations on how best to store my files, which amount to less than 3 TBs.

Thanking you in advance,

Jerry Reed
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bcooter

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 12:25:01 pm »

This morning, I ordered a quad-core Mac Pro for delivery in January.  This design provides rapid data communication via Thunderbolt 2 to external storage.  I am not using the Mac Pro for video, just replacing an old Mac Pro which I use for Photoshop and still images.

There are so many well informed professionals who visit this site, I would welcome your recommendations on how best to store my files, which amount to less than 3 TBs.

Thanking you in advance,

Jerry Reed


Video or stills, welcome to the world of thunderbolt.   As brilliant a design thunderbolt "seems",for moving large volumes of data and for any backwards compatibility, it's a nightmare.

You can put a firewire drive on a thunderbolt computer (with fragile adapters), but never a thunderbolt drive on a macpro firewire computer.

Due to our schedule and travel requirements I travel with 22 terabytes of data in a large messenger bag and since I've added two new Imacs that are usb 3 and thunderbolt, moving to my macpro desktops is impossible, unless I buy new drives and copy the data over.

The best solution is to find a g raid or lacie, 4 tb drive that has tb and usb 3, but those top out at 4 tb and like I said i carry two 8 tb drives 2 4tb drives (not including the lacie rugged I use or capture and backup of master footage and raw stills.

The problem is tb drives with usb 3.0 (at least the ones I've found) have only 1 tb port and 1 usb 3 port so you can't daisy chain them.

I've heard all the technical reasons you can't have a firewire and tb interface on one drive, but it's a very frustrating experience if you run legacy desktops along with the new tb machines and there are no real thunderbolt bus to add enough ports.

The best solution is to find ethernet drives (they're fast transfer and solid), and nearly every machine will accept them, but they're not easy to find without going to large nas servers.

The other solution is to stick with slower fw800 drives and use apples overpriced fw800 to tb adapter, though daisy chaining that type of system is difficult and in my experience the connection is not that secure.

So bottom line, if your not going to add multiple drives but won't to move date to your older desktop, go with a 4tb tb and usb3.0 drive.

Apple has taken "forced" obsolescence to the extreme, because to top off the data storage issue, we use fcp 7 and it works well all the way up to mountain lion (with a few tricks) but it doesn't work securely on Maverick.

IMO

BC



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JerryReed

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 12:44:58 pm »

Thank you for sharing your experiences.  I will look to move my files from the old Mac Pro (cannot progress beyond LION) using the FW 800 connection, then to the new Mac Pro into its TB2 port. But, since I do not plan to store the files on the new MPro, I need to move the files to an external storage, and provide backup.

GRAID (has TB but not TB2 at this writing) and Promise (available as TB2) seem to be offering solutions.  I have not used a RAID previously, and am wondering how to have a large primary storage and then a backup, likely using TIME MACHINE or what ever is best.

Jerry
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Martin Ranger

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 01:32:02 pm »

I have not used a RAID previously, and am wondering how to have a large primary storage and then a backup, likely using TIME MACHINE or what ever is best.

The most elegant (?) way to have large primary storage plus automatic backup is a NAS with a RAID setup that mirrors your data. But unless you have large and growing storage requirements, or want automatic backups (through RAID), BCs recommendation of a large external hard drive is probably a better idea. You can use a second drive as your backup.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 01:36:02 pm »

You didn't say what your speed requirements were for external storage or if you're prefer it to be a box sitting on the same table as the Mac, or conveniently located remotely?

If you can live with speeds equivalent roughly to the fastest internal mechanical hard drives then I'd recommend a professional class NAS such as the Synology line.  I have the 1813+ and find it extremely versatile and as I learn it I'm constantly impressed with it's functionality.  I have two SSD's in my computer, one for system/programs and another as a work drive.  Having all your files on SSD for work is very pleasant.  However, my archives, music, videos, all the stuff I use infrequently or maybe want streamed to another device such as a television or BT speaker.. I put on my NAS.  And with it's USB 3.0 ports you can upload your data initially very quickly.

Some of the useful functions are having your own personal virtually unlimited cloud that operates at speeds much faster than the average cloud service, and your own FTP where you can access your files from anywhere, or anything using their online jpeg viewer with your iphone, tablet, whatever..  The options are unlimited.

If I bought a Mac Pro, part of it's appeal is it's small size and clean lines.  The ability to clear up desk space.  Stacking storage devices anywhere near it defeats this purpose.   My NAS could be in the next room, a closet, a cabinet, or halfway around the world..  which reminds me.. when I travel I frequently upload important files to it for safe keeping.  If I'm lucky enough to get a really fast connection I'll upload everything I have.  My family likes it because with automatic programs everyone can back up their computers, store their excess files, all in private shares for their privacy while only allowing them to see my stuff if I allow it.

With only 3tb of data to store you could get by with a small 4 bay NAS such as the 413+..  
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Joe Towner

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 09:04:59 pm »

Hey Jerry,

Since you're replacing your existing Mac, you can setup a couple of USB3 or Thunderbolt drives/RAID box (Drobo/Lacie/etc) on the new Mac and copy over the network to the new technology drives.  No need for firewire there (actually, you may be better off booting your existing Mac in target disk mode, and connecting it to the new Mac via firewire).

Then setup your backup / archival system as a drive can still fail, and all is good.

-Joe
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 09:39:22 pm »

Also, I can recommend Lacie's eSATA -> TB hub.  You get two eSATA ports into your Thunderbolt port.  Speed is good and it works with no drivers.  Many drives are available eSATA.  I also have a Magma Thunderbolt PCI chassis and you can install host cards in that to run RAIDS over SAS which is damn fast.  All depends on whether you are looking for small portable drives or big, fast, redundant RAIDS.

CB

MAmaro

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 01:01:17 am »

I utilize the Areca ARC-8050 TB1 enclosure.  It comes empty and I populated it with 8 x 4TB Seagate NAS drives in RAID 6 configuration.  All in prep for a new mac pro (currently sitting of an iMac).  I'm was coming from a PC with existing 8TB of data which I just transferred over gigabit ethernet between shared drives.  Took me about a day to move and re-organize everything into the new volume but, she's working fast and way more responsive.  The new 32TB RAID-6 volume runs faster than my OCZ Vector SSD's or my 840 Pro's.

I do know that Areca is supposedly working on putting out a TB2 enclosure 1Q14 but, the pricing on the 8050 was to good to pass up so I jumped on it. 
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nik

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 01:59:38 am »

I was in your situation about a yr ago and ended up going with a cheap (aka slower) solution as a stopgap (while the industry caught up to thunderbolt 2) with the intent of purchasing a Thunderbolt solution once someone other than Lacie or Promise released it. I went with a 4 bay Cineraid enclosure;

http://www.cineraid.com/products/home_h458.htm

with 4*3TB drives in a RAID5 config (it has hardware RAID options built-in) and am connected via usb. Speed is not an issue for me. It's cheap ($189 - diskless), well built and quiet. At home I have a RAID1 Caldigit VR2 unit with 4TB drives which I use as a backup to my Cineraid unit. I use either CCC or Forklift to sync the data remotely.

A new Mac is on order for next year and I will take the Cineraid box home to replace the Caldigit unit and purchase one of the Areca 5026's to replace the Cineraid as my main RAID storage unit.

http://www.cineraid.com/products/Areca_ARC-5026.htm

I did look at Synology, QNAP and the EonNAS (does ZFS) quite a lot, (Synology seems targeted to photographers more and it's what I would buy if I went NAS) and really like what they have to offer but it's only feasible if you are quite technical and invest the time to setup one of these units the way you want it. There are so many options and functions, it's basically a feature packed server, not just a direct attached device. If you want to keep it simple, go the direct attached (DAS) route, not NAS. I have not found a unit that does both - in case you're wondering.

Finally, I did the above AFTER I lost quite a bit of data, so, don't drag your heels too much, just do it, it's worth it. Your drives (and cables!) will fail, no matter what manufacturer or warranty they have. Integral backups is the only insurance.

Best,

Nik
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 02:05:18 am by nik »
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ctz

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 02:34:17 am »

Last mounth I've bought myself this:
http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10607
The box is capable of +750MB/sec and is Thunderbolt I only, and is as silent as my former 2007 MacPro, or even more (I mention this as I understand that some solutions ar quite noisy).
But if I'd plan to buy a MacPro, I'd better wait for the Thunderbolt II revision. Of course the speed is limited by the enclosed hard drives actual speed, but still, a bit of future compatibility doesn't hurt.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 03:21:54 am »

I did look at Synology, QNAP and the EonNAS (does ZFS) quite a lot, (Synology seems targeted to photographers more and it's what I would buy if I went NAS) and really like what they have to offer but it's only feasible if you are quite technical and invest the time to setup one of these units the way you want it. There are so many options and functions, it's basically a feature packed server, not just a direct attached device. If you want to keep it simple, go the direct attached (DAS) route, not NAS. I have not found a unit that does both - in case you're wondering.


As a new Synology who actually purchased and set one up I thought I'd respond to this.  But first I want to make a recommendation that before buyng anything the OP investigate the companies reputation and especially customer feedback.  Lacie for one has one of the worst reputations I've seen in a long time, and IMO it's well deserved.  I come in contact with a lot of users and something I've noticed with Lacie and most of the non-professional units is their power supplies and interfaces are build rather cheaply and because of this they fail.

We're talking our data here, for many of us the data keeps on giving (to our incomes) so it's imperative to do this right.  Cheap or bargain storage devices.. just not worth it.  RAID is good, but keep in mind if a RAID enclosure goes bad you're just not pulling out the drives and putting in any RAID enclosure and getting your data back, you'll need an exact model, often even the same firmware version.   RAID 6 is very good, but from experience running even high end RAID's I've lost my fair share of data.  A multi copy backup program is vital.

With that said the OP should check out Synology's website and read about the features to see if any are useful.  I personally find the cloud and the FTP extremely useful and they're very easy to set up and use.  Maybe the 1513+ would be the right size for the OP,  it's worth reading about.  It's also worth noting that while many of these RAID enclosures run off relatively flaky firmware, all Synology's use the same operating system which is free and comes with the unit with all the free updates.  It comes in Home and Business versions.  The Home version is pretty simple to use.

From the time I had the box in front of me, it took under 30 minutes to populate it with (8) 3tb WD Red's and have it sitting there building it's volume.  You can choose any of the popular RAID versions, but I choose Synology's own system. It's not the fastest, but it is the most compatible so Mac's and PC's are treated like native machines.  I love this because we use both platforms and so do my customers.  The build it image viewer is very user friendly so I'll use it for family and even my clients can easily use it.  IMO compatibility across both Mac and PC platforms is very desirable.

Even as the volume was being built, the system allowed me to do the set-up.  Simple things like setting the clock, giving it a device name, time zones, etc.  And even before the volume was completed it let me start transferring data.  So far I haven't cracked the manual, it's that intuitive.

For most people the most difficult part will be mapping the NAS as a drive.   After doing so, from this point on, it was like using just another hard drive.  I could create folders, drag and drop data, whatever.  So far.. maybe two hours into the process.  

I used the NAS just like that, nothing else, for the first 2-3 weeks.  Then one day I had need of the FTP so I went into the settings, selected FTP and a few minutes later it was done.  I only had to go set up my DDNS in my router, and was done.  A few weeks later I wanted a private cloud to sync my email across all of my devices, so I set it up. 15 minutes tops.  A dedicated Time Machine server, 5 minutes.  I-tunes server, 5 minutes.  DLNA server for watching movies anywhere in the house, multiple shows to different televisions, 10 minutes.

I don't know if I'll ever use the other thousand features, but it's nice to know they're there.  Maybe one day I'll set up some IP cameras and I'll activate the surveillance features, or who knows what.   But for sure the OP will want to read this page of their site aimed at photographers and what one of their devices offers the photographer (a lot)..

So sure, there are lots of features, but by design they're not in your face.  You''ll need to activate and set-up each one as needed.  I think they're very well priced and since you can buy whatever drives you want.  The 4tb WD reds are available now for $189 and the 3tb for $139.   Not bad.

With the introduction this new Mac Pro I'm sure this topic will come up over and over again..
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:26:20 am by Steve Weldon »
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ctz

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 04:20:01 am »

RAID is good, but keep in mind if a RAID enclosure goes bad you're just not pulling out the drives and putting in any RAID enclosure and getting your data back, you'll need an exact model, often even the same firmware version. 

At the time I was doing my shopping research, LaCie had the only ~$1000 solution capable of +750MB/sec, period. For day to day work under pressure, not for redundancy or data safety.
Of course, I keep a separated backup, what of course doesn't need to be as fast as the main fast storage. That's also why I don't need RAID5, 10, 6 or any other. RAID0 is the fastest.
NAS, personal cloud, FTP, mail, sure are pretty, but that's not my point here, I need a fast, very fast storage for day to day use. All that NAS features are complementary, I would not mix them here.
And you can have some of these features and some more just upgrading the free Mavericks to Server, for ~$20. But again, that's not our topic here.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:27:58 am by ctz »
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jduncan

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 05:16:41 am »

This morning, I ordered a quad-core Mac Pro for delivery in January.  This design provides rapid data communication via Thunderbolt 2 to external storage.  I am not using the Mac Pro for video, just replacing an old Mac Pro which I use for Photoshop and still images.

There are so many well informed professionals who visit this site, I would welcome your recommendations on how best to store my files, which amount to less than 3 TBs.

Thanking you in advance,

Jerry Reed

Hi,

I am confused about your needs, since  I see multiple members recommending you eSATA and telling you how is complicated to move files from back and forth from the OLD mac.

But I am under the impression that you are planing to replace the old machine with the new one and that moving data to the old machine is not an issue.
Since you are not planing to run 4K video I will recommend you the Promise Pegasus R6. Not the thunderbolt 2 that is unproved and you don't need the bandwidth at this moment, and probably not for a long time, being so let other people debug the new boxes.

If I am wrong about you don't needing to move the files back and forth between Mac Pros, then you don't need complicated hardware setups either to do so.

In particular you don't need new hardware ( eSATA or otherwise) . Both machines have two gigabit ports so there is no problem with moving data from one to the other just share the proper folder(s) on the network.

It's fast (the drive interface  in the OLD mac are very slow for today standards but adequate for network use) and simple.

Again, you don't need to buy any new hardware (besides your thunderbolt box), even if you don't have a switch (search Crossover network). 

Hope it helps,
Let me know if I am miss reading you.

Best regards,

J. Duncan
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 05:31:38 am »

If you handle large files or a large number of files, my personnal feeling is that NAS on 1 gigabit networks are frustratingly slow. They are by far the main bottleneck, even on 5 years old machines.

I used a SCSI320 attached storage for years until it died a year ago. I replaced it by a pretty much best in class pro NAS from QNAP. It is fast for a NAS, but way slower than my SCSI unit. The unit is 10 gbps ready and would probably be a great solution for live storage if 10 gps switches were available for home networks, but we are stuck with 1 gps for a while.

Nowadays, I would settle for nothing less than TB if you value time and convenience. Sumitomo wiring makes long TB cables that enable remote positioning of arrays.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:37:57 am by BernardLanguillier »
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jduncan

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 05:52:47 am »

If you handle large files or a large number of files, my personnal feeling is that NAS on 1 gigabit networks are frustratingly slow. They are by far the main bottleneck, even on 5 years old machines.

I used a SCSI320 attached storage for years until it died a year ago. I replaced it by a pretty much best in class pro NAS from QNAP. It is fast for a NAS, but way slower than my SCSI unit. The unit is 10 gbps ready and would probably be a great solution for live storage if 10 gps switches were available for home networks, but we are stuck with 1 gps for a while.

Nowadays, I would settle for nothing less than TB if you value time and convenience. Sumitomo wiring makes long TB cables that enable remote positioning of arrays.

Cheers,
Bernard


Hi Bernal,

I agree with you. Thunderbolt is the way to go. What I don't get is the need to buy something extra besides the thunderbolt box (like eSata).
If he will be using his old mac for  "local backup" or something of-line then the ethernet port will do, more so that he is not using video sized files.

That is what make me believe I am missing something.

Best regards,

J. Duncan

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Manoli

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 05:59:27 am »

Sumitomo wiring makes long TB cables that enable remote positioning of arrays.

I saw the original announcement - upto 100 feet / 30M cables - but any links to pricing/availability ?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 06:02:51 am by Manoli »
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bcooter

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 06:45:57 am »

Also, I can recommend Lacie's eSATA -> TB hub.  You get two eSATA ports into your Thunderbolt port.  Speed is good and it works with no drivers.  Many drives are available eSATA.  I also have a Magma Thunderbolt PCI chassis and you can install host cards in that to run RAIDS over SAS which is damn fast.  All depends on whether you are looking for small portable drives or big, fast, redundant RAIDS.

CB

I have the hub and e sata, it's ok, not more than two ports and well typical Apple it's supposedly not supported.

But Thumberbolt is great as long as you dump all of your old computers and copy everything over to thunderbolt drives.

I'm sure Apple wouldn't mind.

Let's see my  300 terabytes X $1,000 for a 10 tb raid equals?

BC

Also you don't have to have screaming fast striped raid drives to work video, even 4k video.  The drive speed, once they are spooled up is rarely the bottlneck and fast drives fail a lot more often than slow drives.

One more thing.  I have one odler spec I mac, two of the last 17" powerbooks with thunderbolt (though TB is slow on the older machines).

The two new Imacs were bought two weeks apart  That first one will come disconnected if you breath on it.  Just slightly adjusting the screen and it disconnects.  The last one is bolt solid but so hard to put the TB cables in it that You think your going to break something.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 07:48:12 am by bcooter »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 07:22:20 am »

I saw the original announcement - upto 100 feet / 30M cables - but any links to pricing/availability ?

The 10m is available at Amazon.co.jp, but currently out of stock.

They had stock a few days ago and the price was 47,000 Yen, meaning about 500 US$.

Regards,
Bernard

JerryReed

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 09:55:12 am »

Friends,

Thank you for your fantastic help.  I have follow up on all the leads that you have provided.

I regret not having made it clear that, once my files are removed from the old Mac Pro, that I do not have further plans for it.

I have looked at a review on CNET of the Promise Pegasus 2 R4 RAID 5 - 8 TB, and it seems that this would be a fine storage for my files, but it seems that I would also need a back up too (even though the RAID 5 is designed for that purpose and wholly separate drive seems to be the safest next step.  Right now I am using a DROBO for backup.

With the TB 2 being so fast, I really do not need a RAID for speed, just to meet current and future capacity needs. 

I am open to your further excellent suggestions.

Jerry Reed
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nik

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Re: Mac Pro - external storage recommendations
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 11:49:18 am »

If you live in the USA, try this link. A bit cheaper

http://store.apple.com/us/product/HE125VC/A/thunderbolt-33-ft10-m-optical-cable-by-corning

Longer cables are on their way. Ditto for optical USB3.

-Nik

The 10m is available at Amazon.co.jp, but currently out of stock.

They had stock a few days ago and the price was 47,000 Yen, meaning about 500 US$.

Regards,
Bernard

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