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Author Topic: Pigment Inks other than Epson  (Read 19258 times)

HSakols

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Pigment Inks other than Epson
« on: December 12, 2013, 09:47:03 am »

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion regarding inks other than Epson or Canon.  In fact sometimes I get the feeling it is a taboo topic.  Surely in this day and age, one should be able to find inks that are just as good if not better for less money.  I don't see Michael doing this, but I'd really like to see more discussion on third party inks.  I'm getting ready to refill my Epson 4800 and have heard good reviews of Cone Inks which are considerably cheaper in price.  I'm surprised that everyone on this site just settles with Epson or Canon inks with no regard for price?  Aren't there some professionals out there that are bucking the Epson trend?  Or are there too many problems at this point with third party inks. It just kills me what Epson charges and then the games they play with the chips - it really is highway robbery.
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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 03:05:27 pm »

It just seems to me that someone out there could make inks just as good as Epson's (Pigment) and create a little healthy competition, but maybe that is not to be mentioned on this site? 
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 03:10:30 pm »

I've posted many times here on my over-a-decade experiences with third party pigment inks and CIS systems on Epson printers.  In short, my experiences have been all positive.

PM me for more info if you wish so we won't bore the other forum members.

regards,

Peter
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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 03:37:30 pm »

Thanks I just PM's you. 
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john beardsworth

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 03:55:13 pm »

I don't see why this should bore other forum members, though maybe you should have posted in the printing forum?

I share your good experience of third party inks and CIS, mainly B&W inksets which have given me the most neutral greyscales I've seen. On the other hand, Epson's various "games" and, to be fair, their product improvements seem to have gradually strangled the life out of the third party vendors. So I felt a slight sense of defeat when I recently got a 3880 and admitted I am impressed with its B&W. I wouldn't think of switching to their papers though.

John
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Schewe

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 04:05:28 pm »

It just seems to me that someone out there could make inks just as good as Epson's (Pigment) and create a little healthy competition, but maybe that is not to be mentioned on this site? 

So, you think Mike censors any talk about 3rd party inks? Got any evidence of that our are you just slinging mud on the wall to see if it sticks?

Fact is, there are indeed 3rd party inks that can work well for niche markets and uses–particularly Cone's B&W inks. But if your only purpose is to be cheap, I suspect that's the problem with 3rd party inks. Formulating high quality inks with large gamuts and good longevity isn't something that is easy. While 3rd party inks might appear to be a viable solution, the question you gotta ask yourself is why is the 3rd party ink cheaper? Lower cost to produce? Less gamut or print longevity? How will that cheaper ink work in your printer? More or less clogs?

One reason I suspect there aren't more people talking about 3rd party inks is that people here tend to be more interested in image quality and less in being cheap.
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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 07:10:13 pm »

I ask because I don't know.  It just seems to me that printing technology is so mature that others could make just as good of a product at competitive prices.  If you needed gas and one station had it for 2.50 a gal and the other had it for 5.00 a gal. which would you choose? Is going to the cheaper station being cheap or wise?  It is not so much being cheap as feeling that I'm being taken advantage of.  After all Epson once had a class action law suit for unethical practices with their inks.  Now if you are saying that Canon and Epson inks are clearly better in regards to Dmax, clogging, and colors, then I'm not interested in third party inks.  Yes, I'm mud slinging when I ask if we are able to talk about this on LULA, but hopefully to generate some good discussion. Even if I were making loads of money from my photography, I would choose the cheaper priced product if it is just as good.  But maybe there are pitfalls that I'm not thinking about.  This is more interesting at least to me than upgrading your camera body every year.  Thanks for all the input.
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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 08:06:45 pm »

Quote
I share your good experience of third party inks and CIS, mainly B&W inksets which have given me the most neutral greyscales I've seen. On the other hand, Epson's various "games" and, to be fair, their product improvements seem to have gradually strangled the life out of the third party vendors.

Ok my situation is that I want to revive my Epson 4800 that has stayed idle all summer and will need a power cycle cleaning.  Is there a noticeable improvement in print quality and ease of use by upgrading to an Epson 3880? 
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2013, 01:39:28 am »

Regarding the difference between a 4800 and a 3880, the difference is visibly noticeable with many images.  Also an old 4800 is probably a high maintenance machine, and even might be nearing end of life on the head, whereas the 3880 is one of the best printers on the market from any maker with regards to clogging and needing to be cleaned.

As far as 3rd party inks, there have been plenty of discussions on the printing forum in the past.  As Jeff mentioned, if wanting amazing black and white and wanting to dedicate a printer, then Cone's B&W set is worth researching.  As far as color I don't think anyone has every really shown they have the longevity and unless you are giving the work away, ink costs aren't a significant production cost on a per square foot basis.  One assumption of the original poster is the inks are amazingly cheap to make, which would motivate competition.  Maybe that's a false assumption?  Just the ability to obtain the almost perfect consistency of color between production runs is pretty amazing and probably requires some pretty specialized technology.  Add the cost of packaging and distribution ... maybe it isn't that cheap.  Then add in that most of the time people can buy their printers with pretty big rebates, meaning the costs of inks is subsidizing the printers.  Just thinking while typing here ... it's never as simple as it seems.

An aside, wondering of the moderators can move threads to correct forums like many sites do? This one is certainly out of place.

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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2013, 07:11:30 am »

Often enough discussed in the printing forum where this thread should be too. If longevity of color prints is also considered then third party color inks still have to improve compared to the HP Vivera pigment ink. Aardenburg-Imaging and Wilhelm Research tests have shown that. For third party B&W inks the fade resistance can be as good or better. MIS Eboni matte black pigment ink is a good example.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 09:31:04 am »

Thanks Michael for moving this to the right spot.  Sorry about that.  It sounds like I will save plenty of  problems by first upgrading to an Epson 3880 which appears to be much less prone to clogs after sitting idle. 
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MHMG

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 11:58:40 am »

If longevity of color prints is also considered then third party color inks still have to improve compared to the HP Vivera pigment ink.


Actually, so could Epson and Canon OEM ink sets aspire to be as good as the HP Vivera pigments. :)  

HP has achieved a terrific yellow lightfastness which in turn reduces overall color shift over time, and while there may be some technical arguments regarding color constancy, gamut, etc., that caused Epson and Canon to go with one yellow pigment type whereas HP went with another, in practice all three OEM sets deliver excellent initial color quality.  The achilles heel for both Epson and to a somewhat lesser degree for Canon is primarily the yellow pigment. If Dano or anyone else at Epson is reading this thread, how about considering the idea of offering an alternative yellow ink for folks that really do care about print permanence? If any third party vendors are reading, I also humbly suggest you have an opening by targeting an improved yellow pigment ink for Epson Ultrachrome printers.

Unfortunately, at this time nearly all third party inks I have tested to date have an even weaker yellow than the Epson Ultrachrome yellow and none have a more lightfast yellow which is not good considering yellow is already the weak link in the Ultrachrome lightfastness chain. Some popular third party pigmented ink sets (e.g., ConeColor Pro) have a weak magenta pigment as well which is arguably more problematic than a weak yellow.

Canon Lucia inks could use some modest improvement in both yellow and the red(orange) inks as well as the green ink to bring up total performance to HP levels but that said, the Lucia skin tone blend light fade performance still outperforms the Ultrachrome skin tone blend lightfade performance by a significant margin. One cannot overstate how important yellow ink lightfastness is for color blends like skin tones. It should go without saying that skin tones are an especially important subset of printable colors considering how many photographs are portraits of people. The very first fading problem people spot in many limited edition litho prints is loss of yellow and a consequent "purplish-blue" color shift in the print. Most litho prints are made with an incredibly fugitive yellow ink. Print collectors will eventually see the same problem in many fine art inkjet prints, maybe not soon, but someday because most of these prints are made with ink sets not nearly as well color balanced for fading over time as the HP inks. This "color balanced" fading of the HP ink set over time can easily be observed in the i* metric data published by AaI&A.  I* color and I* tone scores drop evenly as the HP Vivera pigments fade whereas other ink sets show dramatic I* color loss well in advance of much I* tone loss.

Truth be told, I fully realize that most endusers think the print permanence issue has been sufficiently resolved, so none of the vendors, neither OEMs or third party vendors,  are under any consumer pressure to improve  ink or media permanence these days.  Most printmakers believe all you do is just buy any pigment set and your print permanence issues are over. ;D  The role of the yellow ink and the equally important role of media choice are not well understood in the printmaking community, IMHO, in part because most longevity claims are expressed in decades or centuries of "print life" with little or no information given on what the print will actually look like as it ages over time.  To put the current state of Inkjet inks and media into perspective from a fine art point of view, consider the lightfastness specification of the United Kinddom's Fine Art Trade Guild for limited edition prints. AaI&A tests show that many pigment printer/ink/media combinations these days won't pass the UK Fine Art trade Guild's Lightfastness requirement that all colors in the finished print be equal or better in lightfastness than the Blue Wool #6 dye.

The UKFATG considers BW#6 (which shows "just noticeable" fade at 100 megalux hours of light exposure), to translate into 100 years of acceptable light fade resistance under typical indoor display conditions. BW #6 fade resistance would thus correlate reasonably with an equivalent AaI&A Conservation Display rating equal to or greater than 100+ Megalux hours, and only the HP Vivera pigment ink set reaches that CDR rating for both color and B&W prints in the AaI&A tests on a fairly wide variety of media. Canon Lucia can achieve the spec, too, but media choice needs to be more selective. Epson Ultrachrome makes it routinely for B&W, but media choice is the most critical factor for Ultrachrome color prints to achieve the UKFATG specification. Epson Ultrachrome HDR gives more safety margin for color prints to meet the spec because the HDR orange ink can be substituted more in skin tone color blends, but RIP/printer driver choice is then a factor as well. BTW, high OBA content in any media usually kills meeting the UKFATG specification no matter what inks you use.  I can't give you a comparable Wilhelm rating for BW#6 because WIR tests are conducted to "easily noticeable" not "just noticeable" fading endpoints and are based on densitometry not colorimetry.  The Blue Wool scale (consisting of 8 different blue dyes of roughly linear 2-3x increasing lightfade resistance between the dyed wool patches) has only been studied in the museum world using colorimetric measurements, AFAIK. I have never seen Blue Wool data presented in densitometric terms.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:01:13 pm by MHMG »
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sjgh

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2013, 01:06:40 pm »

Of course there is a place for third party inks. It's possible I don't care if my works of art are around 100 years from now - if it doesn't fade for the next 5-7 years it's more than adequate - hopefully I am replacing them way before that. Also this question of extended gamut, more often than not for the majority of pictures differences are barely discernible to the average viewer. Seems like a lot of hype over very subtle differences. A lot of it comes down to personal choice.

For most purposes the subject and the story that the picture tells is of primary importance not the slight difference in the say the greens. Also no one can convince me that Epson inks cost anything significant to produce probably next to nothing at most for a cart. I am guessing the ink formulation is not rocket science and is relatively easy to reverse engineer. Bottom line I don't see why third party inks should be a viable cost-effective alternative for a lot of needs.
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chez

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 02:29:40 pm »

Of course there is a place for third party inks. It's possible I don't care if my works of art are around 100 years from now - if it doesn't fade for the next 5-7 years it's more than adequate - hopefully I am replacing them way before that. Also this question of extended gamut, more often than not for the majority of pictures differences are barely discernible to the average viewer. Seems like a lot of hype over very subtle differences. A lot of it comes down to personal choice.

For most purposes the subject and the story that the picture tells is of primary importance not the slight difference in the say the greens. Also no one can convince me that Epson inks cost anything significant to produce probably next to nothing at most for a cart. I am guessing the ink formulation is not rocket science and is relatively easy to reverse engineer. Bottom line I don't see why third party inks should be a viable cost-effective alternative for a lot of needs.

Yeh, but it depends if the subtle green tone is on the subjects face.

For me, I've spent much time and effort using a colour calibrated workflow just to be blown out of the water by cheaping out on the inks. They are such a small cost of the entire process, why bother cheaping out?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 02:58:39 pm »

Of course there is a place for third party inks. It's possible I don't care if my works of art are around 100 years from now - if it doesn't fade for the next 5-7 years it's more than adequate - hopefully I am replacing them way before that. Also this question of extended gamut, more often than not for the majority of pictures differences are barely discernible to the average viewer. Seems like a lot of hype over very subtle differences. A lot of it comes down to personal choice.
You make some  good points, and as a landscape photographer I don’t believe there will any of my images remaining in 100 years.   But I also believe 5-7 isn’t nearly adequate, as I have clients now who have images up that are older than that.  In my “previous" life I was a portrait photographer, and I do believe some of those images will have value in the future, so the issues mentioned which affect skin tone are real and important.  Unfortunately the majority of people shooters out there have no clue, and many are still producing most of the work with chromogenic paper.  Some are using inkjet, but do so mainly to speed delivery or “save money” (doubtful they are saving anything).  As far as the hype over gamut etc. perhaps you are right, but they are discernible to the artist and to some discriminating viewers.  Most artists are pretty picky about the finished product, even if they are the only one that can see a difference.

Quote

For most purposes the subject and the story that the picture tells is of primary importance not the slight difference in the say the greens. Also no one can convince me that Epson inks cost anything significant to produce probably next to nothing at most for a cart. I am guessing the ink formulation is not rocket science and is relatively easy to reverse engineer. Bottom line I don't see why third party inks should be a viable cost-effective alternative for a lot of needs.
Again you make assumptions, but I don’t see either Canon nor Epson awash in cash from this amazingly profitable product line.  I think you’ve hit the nail on the head and answered your own question ... if it was indeed so cheap to make there would be alternatives.  In fact, if it were that cheap to make, one of them would have probably dropped the price to gain market share.  So the fact that ink costs are pretty consistent across the 3 companies indicates the costs are driven like all other things in business, real costs and expenses.

Ink costs seem high based on the price of a single cartridge, but to me really isn’t that significant in the final price of a print.
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HSakols

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 03:25:34 pm »

I wonder if Epson and Canon get their inks from the same place?  Or does each company make their own?  Yes I have to be mindful of my costs, because I do not sell enough to make a profit.  Still I want my prints the very best they can be using the best techniques.  I've been looking at 3880 and ink is between $50 and $60 dollars for 80 ml while I can still get 220 ml carts for my epson 4800 for $80.00. On the other hand the days of spending $75.00 to have a 16x20 print made are gone.  I see Jeff's point about being cheap, but he probably could afford ink if it were $100 a ml.   Again if I were making a good living at this we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Still, I don't want to be wasteful. 
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 04:47:04 pm »

I got into the ink business in 2000, when I discovered that the inks for my Epson 9000 printer were quite fugitive, depending on the media printed on. Researching, I found that Ilford had the most permanent dye inkset on the market at the time, (about 25-35 years depending on the media)  but these inks were not formulated for the Epson printers. I worked with an ink chemist to get them to run in Epson printers properly. Unfortunately another company thought they could do the same thing, but just use the thermal printer based ink in the Epson printers. (The Epson 3000 could handle the ink--sorta) What happened, was the newer Epson printers didn't do so well with that ink formulation, and this resulted in the waters becoming contaminated for 3rd party inks at the time.

In the mean while, Epson discovered the clammer for more durable inks, and started using the pigmented variety--ala the Epson 9500. (the prints plainly looked "prefaded")

I looked at the available formulations out there, and found that the only way to compete with Epson was on price, for a product that was not quite as good, and most people were weary of using 3rd party inks for fear of damaging their printers. Unless you were also an Epson mechanic, using 3rd party inks was always regarded as "scarry".

So wisely, I got out of the ink business, because the margins just were not there, for a quality product on a small scale. 

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Peter McLennan

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 05:13:10 pm »

Suggesting that third party inks result in decreased image quality is something I'd like to see proven rather than intimated.  My experience is otherwise.  My 40" prints impress the heck out of me and everyone who sees them.  In nearly a decade of hanging in a sunny room, I see zero fading.  In the same environment, several framed Cibachromes faded to uselessness in a few years.

Mark's statement "BTW, high OBA content in any media usually kills meeting the UKFATG specification no matter what inks you use" indicates that, at least for longevity, the media plays a more important role than the inks.

In addition, for me, the issue goes beyond simple costs. 

from Wikipedia:  "By 2012 500 million laser cartridges and 1.8 billion ink cartridges will be dumped in landfills"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink_cartridge

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BrianWJH

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 06:08:32 pm »

from Wikipedia:  "By 2012 500 million laser cartridges and 1.8 billion ink cartridges will be dumped in landfills"

Which begs the question; why don't Epson, Canon and HP offer refillable carts and bulk inks as modern environmentally aware corporate citizens?

Is it not possible to produce refillable cartridges that are reliable and do not damage the printer?

Is the answer purely economic or are there technical reasons that the major printer companies do not offer refillable cartridges and bulk inks?

Brian.
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chez

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Re: Pigment Inks other than Epson
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 06:46:20 pm »

Which begs the question; why don't Epson, Canon and HP offer refillable carts and bulk inks as modern environmentally aware corporate citizens?

Is it not possible to produce refillable cartridges that are reliable and do not damage the printer?

Is the answer purely economic or are there technical reasons that the major printer companies do not offer refillable cartridges and bulk inks?

Brian.

I would think contamination would be a big deal. If you open up the cartridges, you open up the possibility of contaminants getting in a plugging up the ink supply.
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