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Author Topic: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65  (Read 29644 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2014, 05:08:14 pm »

Hi,

I am not seeing a lot of medium format cameras around. I have seen a single MF camera in Yellowstone in all my years of travel and that was a Noblex film camera. I actually had a Pentax 67 with me.

If you read about photographers here in Sweden, they invariably have a Hasselblad. I have never ever read about a Swedish photographer shooting Phase One. Sweden is of course the home of Hasselblad, but I guess that markets may be different.  I also have the impression that Hasselblad keeps a bit lower prices and has some very nice technology regarding focusing, multishot, T&S solutions and lens program.

Best regards
Erik


I think Phase are seeing significant return on investment with their solutions for industrial users, and institutions with document capture needs who appreciate the reliable robust backs, excellent files and very good software.

Handheld photography is taking the backseat: It seems they have devoted their finite resources for instance to a body that "was designed from the ground up exclusively for aerial photography."

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/iXR.aspx
http://www.aerial-survey-base.com/blog/phaseone-ixa-aerial-survey-camera-system-family/

I guess when Hassy or Leica finally chew into their prosumer business Phase will bring out a new toy, or just turn into a defense contractor. Or maybe they will retain the commercial photography as a lucrative mark-down outlet for sensors that do not meet the stringent homogeneity criteria imperative for remote-sensing applications and photogrammetry.

At this point I'm afraid to say that the Leica S, a modern design for handheld use by individual photographers, almost looks like a value proposition.

Of course, if we get to see a new Phase handheld body soon that is not a simple Phamiya refresh, that would be delightful, but I believe in what I see, and for now that is a robust innovative and integrated aerial photography solution :)

Edmund
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2014, 08:43:02 pm »

Yet, with Hass H and Mamyia 645 being the only alternatives around… it's no surprise why Contax S/H prices are high… It seems that demand keeps them high… OTOH, Rollei 6xxx could be an alternative, but "good luck" in finding an MFDB for it and if you do, "good luck" in being able to de-touch it and fit it on a view camera or a Fuji GX680.

Hass and Mamiya aren't the only options…  Don't forget the Rolleflex Hy6 and Hy6 Mod2 cameras are available new with warranty and a viable option for film or digital backs.   The 6008AF is very inexpensive new - and you can find digital backs for these on the second hand market.  You can fit the Rollei 6000 series digital backs to the X-Act2 for view camera options via the pan shot adapter. If you buy a CF or Ixpress, or Sinar back you can just change adapter plates to mount it on other cameras.    Same for the Hy6 - you can actually fit the Hy6 to any LF camera that takes graflok style film backs with the Leaf adapter plate or you can buy a sliding adapter from a variety of sources including Kapture group and Rolleiflex/DHW to mount the Hy6 to a variety of view cameras.



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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2014, 08:54:15 pm »

I can ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs… Never the less, as I said before, most pros dot use either, they mostly use much older 39 or 33 or 22 backs and some are wise enough to have invested on multishot versions of the same backs while they could.

When making definitive statements like this, I would like to see some citations to back it up. Else, it's as good as me saying "I can ensure you, more human beings now live on Mars than Earth".

Anecdotally, I know a few dozen pros who are using MF; some lower MP backs, some higher MP, but not a single one is using an S2.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2014, 05:09:26 am »

When making definitive statements like this, I would like to see some citations to back it up. Else, it's as good as me saying "I can ensure you, more human beings now live on Mars than Earth".

Anecdotally, I know a few dozen pros who are using MF; some lower MP backs, some higher MP, but not a single one is using an S2.

We are not going to argue on something that there are no evidence around now, are we? …everyone talks out of his experience in such a matter… If mine is different than yours, it shouldn't be a base for an argument. I know some pros (being one myself) that have "jumped" to Leica from Hassy and I know more that are considering it, I also know people that own Contax who now consider it. Those that don't consider it, are the ones that own MS backs (and use them as such)… as I do.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2014, 05:46:53 am »

Hass and Mamiya aren't the only options…  Don't forget the Rolleflex Hy6 and Hy6 Mod2 cameras are available new with warranty and a viable option for film or digital backs.   The 6008AF is very inexpensive new - and you can find digital backs for these on the second hand market.  You can fit the Rollei 6000 series digital backs to the X-Act2 for view camera options via the pan shot adapter. If you buy a CF or Ixpress, or Sinar back you can just change adapter plates to mount it on other cameras.    Same for the Hy6 - you can actually fit the Hy6 to any LF camera that takes graflok style film backs with the Leaf adapter plate or you can buy a sliding adapter from a variety of sources including Kapture group and Rolleiflex/DHW to mount the Hy6 to a variety of view cameras.




But isn't the price of the S/H market a reflection of the demand Eric? Surely the Rollei platform (both of the HY6 and of the 6xxx series) is great for digital MF, it can support all backs with interchangeable plates (Sinar, CFs and impress - but not P1), it can do great MS and the lenses are su-pe-rb… But it seems to me that the (now discontinued) adapters are hard to find and there is no support from P1 (which are the most widely spread MFDBs)… Surely Contax is much more well supported both in the S/H or the new back market. A friend of mine (a pro) was looking to find a digital solution for his 6008i, but he found out that he had to compromise with the (few) offerings and that those offerings where overpriced, he ended up selling his 6008 (for peanuts) and was forced to buy M645 and a Fugi gx680 (he needed to sync flash at at least 1/250) and he also retired his view camera due to the Fuji (I've done the same - retired my P2 for a GX680/Contax fit). Is it his GX680 as good or as accurate as his view camera? …no it isn't, but it's good enough with the 49x37 image area he uses (same as mine in size) and one can do multishot with it by only buying a cable (my case not his), while he would have to invest a fortune on new lenses and shutters to turn his view camera into "tethered (or multishot) capable". He also chose Hass-v lenses to use on his Mamiya via an adapter…
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2014, 05:59:32 am »

We are not going to argue on something that there are no evidence around now, are we? …everyone talks out of his experience in such a matter… If mine is different than yours, it shouldn't be a base for an argument. I know some pros (being one myself) that have "jumped" to Leica from Hassy and I know more that are considering it, I also know people that own Contax who now consider it. Those that don't consider it, are the ones that own MS backs (and use them as such)… as I do.

Then phrase it thusly.
Your posts made it sound that your anecdotal evidence is the actual situation worldwide, without a shadow of a doubt.
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MrSmith

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2014, 06:58:03 am »

I have only ever seen photographs of an S2 never one in the flesh.
With the photoshop trickery available I expect the camera doesn't actually exist.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2014, 07:13:30 am »

Then phrase it thusly.
Your posts made it sound that your anecdotal evidence is the actual situation worldwide, without a shadow of a doubt.
The reasoning behind my posts, is that with the Leica mount being clearly designed to attract users of other MF cameras into the firm via adapters that make their lenses fully compatible, it makes perfect sense for a pro to consider investing on a Leica instead of a new back and (if he also uses a camera with movements) to keep his older back and continue to use it on the view camera… I also know many pros that choose D800E/5dmkiii to use instead of MF equipment in their studios or for fashion work and knew some more in the past that used 5Dmkii, …surely, you don't expect one to provide proof for that also. Pros don't base their choices on pixel peeping when they choose equipment, they choose what can serve the task 100% and know that the outcome depends on their pro skills.
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bcooter

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2014, 08:03:52 am »

Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.


Thousands Less?   With which Phamiya body?

Anyway, not to knock your product but there is a heck of a difference shooting with a Leica S(2) and a Mamiya 645.   Granted Phase tethers better but it won't autofocus Contax, or Hasselblad H lenses, the Leica has great autofocus and let's face it, it's a Leica.

From the dealers I've spoken to that sell multiple brands, Phase, Leaf, Leica, Pentax and Hasselblad, I don't hear anything bad about the Leica.

The Leica, if bought new also comes with a 3 year warranty and i think the latest Kodak sensor that the blad, pentax and Leica uses is the best sensor produced (and probably Kodak's last).

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:06:39 am by bcooter »
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2014, 08:10:22 am »

The reasoning behind my posts, is that with the Leica mount being clearly designed to attract users of other MF cameras into the firm via adapters that make their lenses fully compatible, it makes perfect sense for a pro to consider investing on a Leica instead of a new back and (if he also uses a camera with movements) to keep his older back and continue to use it on the view camera… I also know many pros that choose D800E/5dmkiii to use instead of MF equipment in their studios or for fashion work and knew some more in the past that used 5Dmkii, …surely, you don't expect one to provide proof for that also. Pros don't base their choices on pixel peeping when they choose equipment, they choose what can serve the task 100% and know that the outcome depends on their pro skills.

Sigh.

Pros use 35mm. Pros use M43. Pros use MFDB. Pros use whatever they want. None of this is up for contention.

But it is a very different thing to make an axiomatic statement such as "more pros use the S2 than any high MP back". Something like that requires a citation to be taken seriously.

I sincerely hope you understand the difference, sir.
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2014, 08:34:13 am »

This is the original interview (on Forbes) where Leica announced that they "think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share". All subsequent reports refer to that single original source.

If the source is to be believed (but we should not the use of the weasel words "core market"), 20% of MF pro photographers use a Leica S and the others use another brand. Therefore, the majority (80%...) does not use Leica.

Now, the claim was "more pros use the S2 than any high MP back". It depends on what is a "high MP back" and how you count them. If there are 2000 S2 around and only 1000 IQ180, 1000 IQ280, 1000 IQ160 and 1000 IQ260, both sentences can be true because they are misleading.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2014, 08:48:47 am »


If the source is to be believed (but we should not the use of the weasel words "core market"), 20% of MF pro photographers use a Leica S and the others use another brand. Therefore, the majority (80%...) does not use Leica.


I don't think you can avoid the "weasel words" I have no figures to prove it but the " amateur" market is a proportion of that core. You can't extrapolate that market share to pros. directly. I suspect and may be wrong that perhaps more amateurs have bought into the Leica than into Phase etc. It is the form factor they are familiar with,the Hasselblad amateurs are more likely to be Phase as they are familiar with changing backs, pure conjecture and the definition of amateur and pro come to that is flexible.
I read 'core market' as sales of new gear not S/H or upgrade swops but again we have no sound definition of "core".
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2014, 09:43:40 am »

I guess it all depends on how one values things… I mean if Leica is a newcomer and is already dominant of 20% of the sales and rising (which they claim they do), it does make them successful, clearly, they wouldn't invest on Sinar (the least market share out of all MF makers of the past and a company with known financial problems  ;)) if they wouldn't think that this will help them to advance (and profit) further. OTOH, none knows what (out of the MF market that has been the existing base over the last 12 years) is or has been "pro-use" and what is the balance with respect to "enthusiast" use… Neither there are such figures available for Leica new sales or for other makers (again) new sales…. It only seems, that they are doing very well indeed if they have "20% of the market and rising" and if they "trust" their success so much as to invest on a company that has shrunk considerably the past 6 years, which (if they didn't do well) could be a great risk considering the economic environment.

It only looks "very sensible indeed" for anyone that owns older MF equipment and wishes to bring it up to date (especially those that feel their camera bodies "tiered"), since digital MFDBs have advanced less on IQ than they have on resolution (pixel count) as such - which market seems to care less - especially if one keeps all his lenses and protects his past investment the best he can.  ::)
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2014, 11:43:08 am »

...since digital MFDBs have advanced less on IQ than they have on resolution (pixel count) as such - which market seems to care less - especially if one keeps all his lenses and protects his past investment the best he can.  ::)

I'm very curious... have you actually personally shot with an IQ280 or IQ260 processed in Capture One v7? If not, what backs are you making this comparison based off of that you have personally taken real world shots with?

jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2014, 12:40:31 pm »

I don't think you can avoid the "weasel words" I have no figures to prove it but the " amateur" market is a proportion of that core. You can't extrapolate that market share to pros.

The line between "pro" and "amateur" is fuzzy, so a definition will be difficult but I would think that "Core market" in that context refers to "pro photographers and amateurs with similar needs" and excludes the luxury / collector market (e.g. Hasselblad Ferrari edition) and technical uses (for example scientific and aerial photography).

Actually, aerial photography appears to be a relatively big market for medium format. Hasselblad and Phase one have a special line for that  use.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2014, 01:31:22 pm »

I'm very curious... have you actually personally shot with an IQ280 or IQ260 processed in Capture One v7? If not, what backs are you making this comparison based off of that you have personally taken real world shots with?
Hi Doug, I've used P25+ on Contax and Hass H, P45+ on Mamyia and Hass H, Leaf aptus 5ii & 7ii on Mamyia, Sinar e-motion22 on Contax and HY-6, Sinar e-motion75LV on HY-6, Sinar 75H on Hass H and Sinar P3 (both in single shot and multishot), Sinar 54m on Contax, Hass H and Sinar P3 and the highest resolution I'm experienced with, is P65+ on Mamyia (rented that for a week). Also, I've used various Hass H, up to H3Dii-39ms. I used to own a couple of the above, but finally settled for an Imacon 528c which I have no intention to replace since most of its use is on 16x MS mode where the image quality easily exceeds anything else. Out of all the above and judging from single shot only, I think they were all close. My preference (for single shot) would be for the look of Emotion 75LV used with Shneiders on HY-6 (or 6xxx of course) or P25+ on Contax, but this is me… I don't think there is MF I don't like, mind you that I'm not exactly the kind of man that considers resolution to be of importance when it comes down to image quality, nor I do much of pixel peeping when using equipment to compare it, my preferences are the ones that suit my taste best when it comes down to printing photographs which I do with my own equipment (epson 9900) in my own studio. Also mind you that I am among those who find that the Kodak "fat pixel" sensors had some "unique magic" in their look… other than that, I prefer the Dalsa 33mp chip over the Kodak 39 one or the other Dalsa I've tried, I think Dalsa has great colour, but the 33mp has even better than the rest. I also use Nikon D4 and D800E DSLRs but this is mainly with projects that require higher Iso.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2014, 04:00:41 pm »

Hi Doug, I've used P25+ on Contax and Hass H, P45+ on Mamyia and Hass H, Leaf aptus 5ii & 7ii on Mamyia, Sinar e-motion22 on Contax and HY-6, Sinar e-motion75LV on HY-6, Sinar 75H on Hass H and Sinar P3 (both in single shot and multishot), Sinar 54m on Contax, Hass H and Sinar P3 and the highest resolution I'm experienced with, is P65+ on Mamyia (rented that for a week).

So the most recent Phase/Leaf solution you've tried was made in 2008.

Can I also assume that was in the days of Capture One v6?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 04:03:08 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2014, 06:02:59 pm »

So the most recent Phase/Leaf solution you've tried was made in 2008.

Can I also assume that was in the days of Capture One v6?
No, I actually first tried it at a conference on summer 2009 where Paul H. (I believe you know who I'm talking about) also presented the first version of v7… then I rented it during 2011 to try it on a painting reproduction project I was doing in my studio, I then decided to invest on a S/H multishot back to replace the Sinarback I used to own at the days. Great  back the P65+ I must say, but I still think that the 33mp Dalsa sensor has even better colour performance, its DR is as good and detail is more than anyone can ask for without ever "stretching" lenses. Never the less, more than all MF sensors, I prefer that "different" punchier - a bit over saturated look (even if colours are not as natural as Dalsa) and mid tone contrast that the old 22mp Kodak backs had, I happened to have tried P25+ and P45+ together and although the two sensors had a very similar presentation (different to Dalsa), I would vote for P25+ to have that extra "something" that could remind of negative film - only better… I guess it all comes down to personal taste and aesthetics, but I bet you've heart that nostalgic "fat pixel magic" before from some other of your customers. Clearly I believe that my D800E is much worst (and the more I use it the more my opinion enhances) than any back of 36x48 size and 22mp of resolution or more, no matter how old the back might be.
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