First Medium Format Purchase - My Head is Going to Explode

[EricWHiss]

The Leica S2 might feel like a better put-together system than the Phamiyas or the Blads, but there's one thing about it that pots it out of contention for me, no matter how cheap it gets; and that's the 3:2 ratio. I simply hate working with this aspect ratio. Almost everything I shoot with the D800 is cropped down to 4:3 (Or to a lesser extent, 5:4). Every time I pick my Bronica up, I see the world differently. In a way that appeals to me a lot more than how it looks through a 3:2 viewfinder. And that's a major reason why I am going DMF.

In other words, the S2 is perfect for those who like the "35mm DSLR feel". For the rest, it's a non-player.

+1   I'm with you on the 3:2 ratio.   

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Although I am cropping my images to content, so I actually almost never use camera ratio I tend to agree, 645 ratio often gives a good starting point. Something I start to appreciate after shooting 645 for half a year.

Best regards
Erik

+1   I'm with you on the 3:2 ratio.   

[bcooter]

o 4:3 (Or to a lesser extent, 5:4). Every time I pick my Bronica up, I see the world differently. In a way that appeals to me a lot more than how it looks through a 3:2 viewfinder. And that's a major reason why I am going DMF.

In other words, the S2 is perfect for those who like the "35mm DSLR feel". For the rest, it's a non-player.

I agree, for most still images 4:3 is better, 4:5 even better than that, except 90% of every still I shoot is horizontal.  Don't know why, I guess it's just the designs are all worked on a horizontal computer so that's the dimension they work from.

I'd love it if every camera had a setting that if you turned it vertically it would black the screen to 4:3, go horizontal and it becomes 2:3.

Now I love the Bronicas also, I used them forever and their screen makes the contax look tiny, though if you want a big view of life, look at the new Olympus omd e-1.  That's bloody 4:3 huge and you can actually autofocus it without the enlargement setting.  Pretty crazy for a 1300 buck camera.

Since I use the m43's a lot and we insert stills into video for intros, effects, I find that I set them for 2:3 anyway just to give a better approximation of the video frame, though they capture the whole 43 sensor in raw.



BC

[bcooter]

Hey, what's wrong with Jessica Robertson??

Really?

C1 Upgrades are $50/computer.

From 2005 until today there have been 4 upgrades, 2 of which were free to owners of v3.

This is really unreasonable to you for one of the most important non-human components of your tethered shoots??

My guess is you've spent more money on gaffe tape than you have on C1 upgrades.

Single channel RGB levels and Single Channel RGB Curves were added many versions ago.

C1v7, including those features, is free for use with any of your digital backs. Or $99 upgrade for a 2-computer license if you also want to use it with your Canon/Nikons.

OK I'll admit lately I have a bug up my a__ over software and computers.  We run 13 machines and no not 13 people running all of them, rarely more than two people, but I am insane enough to live in multiple cities and have 5 in LA (2 editing, 1 transcoding, 2 still stations) two powerbooks that travel in the dit station, 1 for motion, 1 for stills, 3 in Dallas, 1 editing, 1 combined, 1 still, and three in london, so when I go to upgrade to c1 it's not $50 it's $650 if I load them all up and it's such a pain.

Lately I've added two more and Apples insistence on Maverick is going to turn me into that hooded guy that wears sunglasses and sends notes out of scrap newspaper.    I'll bet I've spent over $1500 this last month just on plug ins, little functions like ftp upload apps, dam software, all that stuff you don't think about until you need it.

In fact two of the Imacs I bought were full tilt loaded and identical, only bought 1 week from the other and one will run mountain lion which is rock stable for me, the maverick computer crashed like every 4 minutes running final cut.  I finally wiped the drive three times and reinstalled the software and found out if I didn't do the "demanded" video card upgrade it is now solid, so yea, I'm a little more crazy than normal which is really going some.

But Doug maybe it's me but we bought a bunch of liscenses from Steve and every time I go to add them into a machine they get rejected.  I'd call Steve up, but I doubt seriously if he wants me buzzing him at 4:15 in the morning, so I just flip over to lightroom, fight the orange face syndrome and process.

Also C-1 7 is bog slow on my older older machines that don't have open cl enabled and after working terabyte of video footage, no still processing should be slow.

I wish Phase would do the apple store thing where you just put in the secret code and it downloads and no Phase's secret code never works for me.

Also I've never skanked a piece of software in my life, but the little spotty kids that work for me can download anything faster than I can legally buy it.

I only shoot naked brides.

Seriously though, fast flash sync isn't about stopping motion in the studio while stopped down. For that, as you say, flash duration is the only thing that really matters.

They're you go, I knew there was a reason you'd put up with doing a wedding.

I think I found one of your images here.



Hey, you use what you like and that's great.  It's just me that's nuts, not you.  

For one I hate to use what everyone uses (which is why I probably cringe over the d800).  

I also just loathe spending more than 10 grand on a camera body.  RED kind of did me in on the R1's.  I wrote two 25 grand checks for two bodies and I think they dropped to 8k then 4k in price in a week.  Not that I still can't use them or plan on selling them but it  kind of pi--es me off.  That and dropping $4,500 three times for RED rockets which two died with the only response is they sell me two more for 3 grand a pop, though they sell them to anyone at 3 grand now.
(And they say good will is dead).

So compared to RED you guys are a bargain.

But I'll probably still buy the Leica.  It's a decent price, has a big viewfinder, will take my lenses and let me fool myself into believing that I'm a photographer and not a content provider.

Also it's a leica, I'll use it until the paint peels and it's just a camera that hides the fact it's really a computer.

Everybody jukes the stats.

IMO

BC

[Doug Peterson]

We run 13 machines and no not 13 people running all of them, rarely more than two people, but I am insane enough to live in multiple cities and have 5 in LA (2 editing, 1 transcoding, 2 still stations) two powerbooks that travel in the dit station, 1 for motion, 1 for stills, 3 in Dallas, 1 editing, 1 combined, 1 still, and three in london, so when I go to upgrade to c1 it's not $50 it's $650 if I load them all up and it's such a pain.

---

But Doug maybe it's me but we bought a bunch of liscenses from Steve and every time I go to add them into a machine they get rejected.  I'd call Steve up, but I doubt seriously if he wants me buzzing him at 4:15 in the morning, so I just flip over to lightroom, fight the orange face syndrome and process.

We frequently consolidate licenses for our customers (at no charge). So instead of several 2-seat licenses, you end up with one XX-seat license. This makes it a LOT more easy to manage.

You can keep that (one) license linked to your email address, which you can use to login to phaseone.com to manage at any time.

Moreover P1 will let you reset the activations on your license from their website (24/7, free). This means you only need as many licenses as you plan to use at the same time. If you have the budget/inclination you can have enough licenses to activate all the computers at the same time, but it's not necessary.

I think P1's licensing and upgrade policies are some of the most generous in the pro-photography market. The only license I find more photographer-friendly is Aperture. Certainly P1's policies are more photographer-friendly than Adobe.

[eronald]

Doug,

 I must say I know quite a few people who run cracked software *while in the possession of valid licenses* because of the irritation not with the cost or terms but with the licensing process itself. In fact there are some specialist online shops which seem to "sell" cracks to exactly this customer base. I know some very respected individuals in the industry who "shop" for cracked software they have already licensed -in effect paying twice just to avoid hassle. I myself run at least one piece of dongled software which I will end up buying a crack for because although I own 3 (!) dongles, the dongles are always in the wrong place.

 In my capacity as an analyst I'd estimate that copy protection nuisance issues are responsible for at least 30% of the cases when a piece of software gets dropped from a workflow, at least for individuals.

 Our esteemed friend who goes by the name of Cooter seems to be a paying customer, I would suggest you listen carefully to what he is saying, because in his high pressure situation he will drop any product that creates a workflow issue. Telling him there is a solution is no use - either the solution is there at once or he really has a problem and then you have one less customer. Don't forget, for someone like him the easiest solution is to go all-Adobe.

Edmund

We frequently consolidate licenses for our customers (at no charge). So instead of several 2-seat licenses, you end up with one XX-seat license. This makes it a LOT more easy to manage.

You can keep that (one) license linked to your email address, which you can use to login to phaseone.com to manage at any time.

Moreover P1 will let you reset the activations on your license from their website (24/7, free). This means you only need as many licenses as you plan to use at the same time. If you have the budget/inclination you can have enough licenses to activate all the computers at the same time, but it's not necessary.

I think P1's licensing and upgrade policies are some of the most generous in the pro-photography market. The only license I find more photographer-friendly is Aperture. Certainly P1's policies are more photographer-friendly than Adobe.

[TMARK]

Cooter wrote:  

"If you point a Leica, I promise you your brain works different.  If it feels important in your hand it will look important in the viewfinder (you can quote me on that).  I have about 15 minutes (at most) to relight, make the subject into a pretty still and then back to the next setup.  I don't need a billion iso, just 800 and with the fast contax glass I can get there with a kino or a 500 to 800 watt hmi, or if I look  a window light and a cutter will do it."

This is VERY true.

[eronald]

Doesn't Leica have a program like Canon's "explorers of light" where a deserving upstanding member of the community like ... can apply for his free S2? It's so sad to witness this unrequited yearning and adoration:)

Edmund

Cooter wrote:  

"If you point a Leica, I promise you your brain works different.  If it feels important in your hand it will look important in the viewfinder (you can quote me on that).  I have about 15 minutes (at most) to relight, make the subject into a pretty still and then back to the next setup.  I don't need a billion iso, just 800 and with the fast contax glass I can get there with a kino or a 500 to 800 watt hmi, or if I look  a window light and a cutter will do it."

This is VERY true.

[TMARK]

I don't think Leica has ever given anything away for free.  Ever.

The Canon Explorers of Light (a painful name that conjurs the "ARTIST" Thomas Kinkade) never gave anything away, it was sort of like an expanded CPS program.  Long term loan in trade for using your name and personal work for marketing.

The thing about the S2 is that all of Nikon's DF marketing applies.  Perhaps more so than the DF.

I get the same feeling of purpose from a Nikon F4, F5, Hasselblad V, Rollei.  Heft and simplicity, tripod free.

It is yearning.  I often think of the private school tuition I pay, and how neatly one year of tuition would pay for an S2, the 70 2.5 and a few adapters for my V lenses.  As someone said, the kids will adjust to public school.  It not so bad.  They can already read and do math,  One speaks French fairly well.  Its only a year.

Doesn't Leica have a program like Canon's "explorers of light" where a deserving upstanding member of the community like ... can apply for his free S2? It's so sad to witness this unrequited yearning and adoration:)

Edmund

[EricWHiss]

I often think of the private school tuition I pay, and how neatly one year of tuition would pay for an S2, the 70 2.5 and a few adapters for my V lenses. 

Yeah so true!    Starting a private school might be a good business to get into…

Totally off topic

In SF there was a lottery system where the parents put their first choice in grade schools - out of about 50 there are maybe 3 good ones.  We got one and people told us we won the lottery - and actually that's almost true …  K-8th x 2 kids x $30k/year

[TMARK]

We did the lottery system, got one of the good schools, then the budget was cut such that there were 31 kids in a class and the school was forced to take some really bad teachers close to retirement.  So, yeah, back to $22k x 2, for the forseable future.  Better than NYC, where private is between $33k and $40k.

T

Yeah so true!    Starting a private school might be a good business to get into…

Totally off topic

In SF there was a lottery system where the parents put their first choice in grade schools - out of about 50 there are maybe 3 good ones.  We got one and people told us we won the lottery - and actually that's almost true …  K-8th x 2 kids x $30k/year

[eronald]

The Canon Explorers of Light (a painful name that conjurs the "ARTIST" Thomas Kinkade) never gave anything away, it was sort of like an expanded CPS program.  Long term loan in trade for using your name and personal work for marketing.

TMARK

I used to know one of these guys - a beauty/fashion guy, I learnt a lot of retouch tricks from him - and he had a very good relationship with Canon,  testing new cameras in development etc. I am sure every manufacturer does something similar, officially or unofficially, as I keep running into camera testers.

Pretty sure Leica gives stuff away, when the name of the person it's given to promotes the brand or gets their foot in a door. I think this is called celebrity marketing.

BTW, what does top talent like our friend shoots now charge for a day's work? I have a feeling this story is like the owner of a Caddy complaining about the price of whitewall tires.

Edmund

[fredjeang2]

BTW, what does top talent like our friend shoots now charge for a day's work? I have a feeling this story is like the owner of a Caddy complaining about the price of whitewall tires.

That has changed quite a lot.

Unless few ones at the very top, not only in the craft recognition but also (and a lot) on the celeb gossip parade.

[eronald]

That has changed quite a lot.

Unless few ones at the very top, not only in the craft recognition but also (and a lot) on the celeb gossip parade.

Don't be shy, Fred, give us some numbers for an intl. ad campaign ...
After all people here are saying how much their cameras cost, and what the school fees are ...

Edmund

[TMARK]

No one charges a day rate, its all usage and mark ups on rentals or renting your own gear, file prep, etc. 

That being said, its all in the usage and the media buy.

I rarely see estimates now adays, unless its brought to me to look over if it seems high or low.  It usually includes production, so I see a bottom line number that includes usage and production, including travel and estimated AMEX bills.  Also, I've only had one campaign in the last three years that was shot stills only.  It was Nadav Kander.  I don't know what his rate was but the ad buy was relatively large and the client relatively rich.

IN NYC for a fashion editorial, if it was a big spread, I'd net $3k - $12k, on usage.  Maybe.  Single shots for a newspaper's Sunday edition around $0 - $800, but they pay for production.  Corporate headshots for a website and print collateral, say 20 delivered files, $20k, where ALL RIGHTS are transferred.

So it depends. 

Don't be shy, Fred, give us some numbers for an intl. ad campaign ...
After all people here are saying how much their cameras cost, and what the school fees are ...

Edmund

[fredjeang2]

I'm not in still (fashion) industry anymore, but if my memory is correct
the lastest campaign we had one top model (wich name I won't reveal), fashion brand
and per day she was earning 5000 with hotel and facilities payed of course.
It's about 3500 or a Little more for her net per day wich is not astronomical at all.
The photographer, way less.
I talked with the model about that and she told me that a few years ago she was
earning the double.
Of course, this does not take into account the photocalls she did for the sponsors
but that was not part of the campaign.

Now in video...it's the wild west. The latest I did that involved a fast editing and some retouch
basicaly to recover some artefact in the oblics and it was a day of work plus the DCP
and they paied me 650 euros in wich I have taxes. So approx a day of work is in between
250 and 600 depending.

I would say that in the low-end, if one can make 2000euros/month you can say it's quite good.
(this is approx the salary of the building watchman...)

[bcooter]

Doesn't Leica have a program like Canon's "explorers of light" where a deserving upstanding member of the community like ... can apply for his free S2? It's so sad to witness this unrequited yearning and adoration:)

Edmund

T's right Leica doesn't give out stuff for free, few companies do, but trust me, you don't want it.  

I know a celeb that Kauffman gave a noctilux to and some of them will cut you a mediocre deal if you say what they want.

In fact the only two companies I've dealt with that I think actually like professional photographers are Fuji and was Leaf.  They both respected professionals that used their equipment.

Those two companies were photographer centric though even leaf got suckered in by a few looks like a photographer but not a photographer types.

In my experience the rest not only don't respect photographers some hold contempt.   Kodak was the worse.

Now companies will give free s__t out to real celebrities and if your shooting a real celeb, they'll show up in 12 seconds to drink wine and schmooze.

Camera companies will also kiss the a-- of reviewers and some bloggers with high count sites, even pay some for consultation,  though usually once the review is over they want their camera back, even if its 2 grand.

There is one camera company who I worked with that I would never write a check to, even if they gave me their house and I get an email a week where some asks "should I buy a ----- ---.  I say sure, if you want to donate to the devil.

No the best deal is buy retail and try to buy from a local store that's not b+h, samys or amazon, so you can actually walk in and touch the equipment before you buy.

In that part of the industry, my favorite person is Steve Hendrix.  As far as I know he's never once fibbed to me, or shaded the truth and the people that buy from him are usually loyal for life (and full disclaimer I get nothing for free from Steve, would never ever expect it).  I just like him.

In fact as I write this I got an email from Steve whose standing in line at the dmv.  He tracked down some very esoteric equipment I use and found the whole set new.  I bought it as fast as I could write.

So in my view . . . Call Steve.

IMO

BC

[ErikKaffehr]

Sometimes, I think out of the box…



Best regards
Erik

I agree, for most still images 4:3 is better, 4:5 even better than that, except 90% of every still I shoot is horizontal.  Don't know why, I guess it's just the designs are all worked on a horizontal computer so that's the dimension they work from.

I'd love it if every camera had a setting that if you turned it vertically it would black the screen to 4:3, go horizontal and it becomes 2:3.

Now I love the Bronicas also, I used them forever and their screen makes the contax look tiny, though if you want a big view of life, look at the new Olympus omd e-1.  That's bloody 4:3 huge and you can actually autofocus it without the enlargement setting.  Pretty crazy for a 1300 buck camera.

Since I use the m43's a lot and we insert stills into video for intros, effects, I find that I set them for 2:3 anyway just to give a better approximation of the video frame, though they capture the whole 43 sensor in raw.



BC

[gerald.d]

In fact as I write this I got an email from Steve whose standing in line at the dmv.  He tracked down some very esoteric equipment I use and found the whole set new.  I bought it as fast as I could write.

So in my view . . . Call Steve.

IMO

BC

Wasn't a set of Leica Summilux-C's by any chance was it?

[bcooter]

\

BTW, what does top talent like our friend shoots now charge for a day's work? I have a feeling this story is like the owner of a Caddy complaining about the price of whitewall tires.

Edmund

I don't know who your referring to but I can fortunately afford what it takes to run my business, but it takes a lot and I do it in a very complicated way.

Buying an S2 isn't a problem.  Using it is.  Do I need it . . . NO.  Do I want it  . . . kind of because I want a new STILL camera.  

Anyway on your question on rates, I won't give numbers as only the government gets access to that, but with increased taxes, multiple locations, costs of doing business in motion imagery and inflation costs have gone up dramatically and rates haven't.

We've found ways to keep the numbers good, but the base line for most  is you work twice as hard for half the pay.  My neighbors in LA are all in the biz in different specialties, writer, costumer design, production company rep, DP, effects person and they all have the same answer.  Twice the work, half the pay, twice the demands, no complaining or coming back for more.

In fact two people on my block have basically just walked away from the biz.  They suffered a kind of sick of this s__t burnout and are exploring new life options, (whatever that means).

For the last 5 years the industry did a flip.   82% of all corporate advertising manager jobs have disappeared, the hardest hit job category in the U.S.,  Those are the people that manage the people that hire us, so work that out.

Also the biz world has gone conservative.   No bat shit crazy concepts where people toss money at the job to get it done.  It's now 3 creative treatments, 4 estimates and hitting the bottom line.

The money can be a drag, but the lack of creativity is a heart breaker.    The world just doesn't want to have fun anymore and fun seems defined by an i phone and one beer instead  of going out and doing stuff that actually increases spending and gets you in fun trouble. 

And NO social media and internet advertising has not made up the difference.  

In fact most metrics don't show social media as a replacement for traditional advertising.   Amazon may sell a lot, but that's only after someone advertised the product for them.  Let's face it you walk though google like you do on soho  with the attitude of hope I see something I'll like.

You go on google after visiting the car dealer or a camera store and type in Leica S2 for sale and see the results.

That's why I say buy from a smaller dealer you know.  Saving $400 might save a job or two.

Facebook Autoplay may open up new venues for advertising, but we'll have to wait on that because the web has a reputation for cheap and a cheap media buy usually means cheap content.

You can't blame advertisers though because they can only sell so much to so many.   Forget the BS you hear about the lower employment rate (which doesn't count people that fell off the unemployment roles or  just gave up) or the inflation numbers that don't count energy costs and food (duh?).

The U.S. has more people looking for work than any time in 35 years, so add it up, if you are only going to have 300 people a day walk into a store, no matter how you advertise your still going to get 300 people a day.

The world is on buzz kill mode right now and unfortunatley believes this really is the new normal,  but so far,  we're doing ok as long as I pull very long days.

IMO

BC