First Medium Format Purchase - My Head is Going to Explode

[Doug Peterson]

S2's are going for 10k and under.    

check this out.

Nice semi real world test.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race

In that review the guy compares an S2 file against a somehow-defective Aptus II 12 (the strong magenta cast intraframe) which he calls a "Phase One Leaf Aptus II 12" (it's not a Phase One branded product), and incorrectly refers to ISO200 as "one stop above native" (it's 2 stops above the native for that back), and is processing the Aptus files through LR rather than C1 (LR at that point was especially bad at handling mid-ISO leaf files). I stopped reading at that point.

This is like comparing Car X to a "BMW Rolls Royce" with defective tires, driven by a drunkard, and finding the handling is not as good.

(Note nothing in this post is a slam/insult/slight to the S2. Only the reviewer's technique in evaluating the Aptus II 12.)

Just goes to show the importance of doing your own testing with a knowledgable dealer rather than relying on what's posted on the internet.

[Ken R]

S2's are going for 10k and under.    

check this out.

Nice semi real world test.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race

BC

That Guy made a few HUGE mistakes when testing the Leaf back. He used it at iso 200 and used ACR/Lightroom to process the files. But if that how he was going to use it then he did the right thing for his purposes obviously.

I have used the Leica S (briefly) and looked at the files and image quality is no better than a Nikon D800E w/ the best lenses at optimum settings and technique. That said however, the Leica S lenses are the best I have ever seen. Mechanically and Optically superb. They work awesome wide open and handle tricky high contrast lighting situations and light sources in the frame amazingly well. They are cost prohibitive for most though so thats where the adapters come in but then again you loose the biggest edge of the Leica S system which are the lenses.

The Leica S body oozes quality though, feels great in the hand, and the viewfinder and focusing screen are just superb. It is a VERY versatile camera, the most versatile Medium Format Digital camera made. I am sure they can keep the design as is and just upgrade the sensor as needed.

That said the 60/80mp Phase backs absolutely destroy the Leica in terms of resolution and I believe dynamic range also when used at base iso. So the Leica is in some middle ground since the 35mm format cameras have come so far in image quality. I felt it is a Body and Lenses looking for a sensor. Phase is the opposite, it is looking for a body since the Imaqe Quality is second to none.

[eronald]

In that review the guy compares an S2 file against a somehow-defective Aptus II 12 (the strong magenta cast intraframe) which he calls a "Phase One Leaf Aptus II 12" (it's not a Phase One branded product), and incorrectly refers to ISO200 as "one stop above native" (it's 2 stops above the native for that back), and is processing the Aptus files through LR rather than C1 (LR at that point was especially bad at handling mid-ISO leaf files). I stopped reading at that point.

This is like comparing Car X to a "BMW Rolls Royce" with defective tires, driven by a drunkard, and finding the handling is not as good.

(Note nothing in this post is a slam/insult/slight to the S2. Only the reviewer's technique in evaluating the Aptus II 12.)

Just goes to show the importance of doing your own testing with a knowledgable dealer rather than relying on what's posted on the internet.

Doug,
 This is one of those -fortunately rare- cases when I have to completely agree with you
Edmund

[HarperPhotos]

Todd,

I find it interesting that you what to go from Nikon to DMF so you can shoot more commercial.

I’ve been an adverting photographer for 28 years and have used Sinar, Mamiya RZ, Mamiya 645AFD, Horseman, Noblex, Rollie and Nikon.

Now all I use is a Nikon D800E and Nikon D800 for all the different type of work I do. Go to my website and you will see the sort of stuff I do.

Now this is my opinion don’t was your money on DMF period. Wait cause next year Nikon will bring out the Nikon D4X which I think will have some improvement over the Nikon D800’s for a fraction of the cost of you wasting your money on DMF.

Those CCD sensors are just awful.

Cheers

Simon

[lowep]

you are right your head is going to explode that is why most buy MFDB systems

[eronald]

you are right your head is going to explode that is why most buy MFDB systems

medication or meditation can help preserve your bank account

Edmund

[EricWHiss]

Those CCD sensors are just awful.

Don't be shy now Simon.  Come on tell us how you really feel!   

My personal preference is for the CCD, but for me its more the viewfinder and ergonomics that I choose MF, and also the look of the image, the crop ratio.  I dunno, I just don't feel good with the DSLR's. I'd probably feel lost with the A7.  Anyhow my view is it sure is great to have all the different options, even film too.   

[bcooter]

Doug,

Obviously the Aptus had problems, though the Sinar didn't, neither did the Leica.

But discounting that I didn't post the link to diss a leaf I posted to link to show the attributes of the S2.

Earlier this year I got very close to switching (or adding systems), a new h5d 40.  With three standard lenses the price was $27,000 and would make my Contax not as much as a backup as a separate system.

With the S2 going now for under $10,000 using my contax lenses it almost all becomes one cohesive system for bargain rates.

And be honest.  If it was your money, you were paying list, would you spend 25k on a blad or a Phase, or 10k for a Leica, especially if you had a zeiss lens set that covered 35mm to 210 mostly doubled?

Also I love the look of that kodak sensor, I've seen it in the blad I've seen it in the Leica and Pentax and think it produces a unique look and I'm not the world's biggest fan of dalsa.

Now as I've written, I've had great luck with my Phase backs and will continue to use them, but my new rule (after 4 medium format backs and three REDS) is i will not buy a camera that costs over 10 grand.


IMO

BC

[Doug Peterson]

And be honest.  If it was your money, you were paying list, would you spend 25k on a blad or a Phase, or 10k for a Leica, especially if you had a zeiss lens set that covered 35mm to 210 mostly doubled?

For what I personally do (weddings, nudes, and landscape) flash sync speed up to 1/1600th, high continuous frame rate without buffer limit, ISO up to 3200, 3:4 frame instead of a 2:3 frame, and tethering into C1 would bring me to the IQ140.

But I never said anything bad about the S2 option - just that the tester of the Aptus II 12 reached conclusions about a product which he had little knowledge of, used in very non-ideal ways, and had a defective copy of.

[eronald]

J,

 The part I don't understand is why you want a different camera (S2) if it has exactly the same Kodak sensor as a P30, and on top of that you lose the wonderful processing from C1
 I thought you liked the Contax experience. If you swap to the S2, what is gained here?

 Maybe you need more wine, women, drugs and rock and roll, or just a really quiet month in a Zen Monastery
 
Edmund

Doug,

Obviously the Aptus had problems, though the Sinar didn't, neither did the Leica.

But discounting that I didn't post the link to diss a leaf I posted to link to show the attributes of the S2.

Earlier this year I got very close to switching (or adding systems), a new h5d 40.  With three standard lenses the price was $27,000 and would make my Contax not as much as a backup as a separate system.

With the S2 going now for under $10,000 using my contax lenses it almost all becomes one cohesive system for bargain rates.

And be honest.  If it was your money, you were paying list, would you spend 25k on a blad or a Phase, or 10k for a Leica, especially if you had a zeiss lens set that covered 35mm to 210 mostly doubled?

Also I love the look of that kodak sensor, I've seen it in the blad I've seen it in the Leica and Pentax and think it produces a unique look and I'm not the world's biggest fan of dalsa.

Now as I've written, I've had great luck with my Phase backs and will continue to use them, but my new rule (after 4 medium format backs and three REDS) is i will not buy a camera that costs over 10 grand.


IMO

BC

[Rob C]

J,

 The part I don't understand is why you want a different camera (S2) if it has exactly the same Kodak sensor as a P30, and on top of that you lose the wonderful processing from C1
 I thought you liked the Contax experience. If you swap to the S2, what is gained here?

 Maybe you need more wine, women, drugs and rock and roll, or just a really quiet month in a Zen Monastery
 
Edmund

The first part of that sentence makes you sound like Father Christmas! If I promise to keep the fire unlit on the 24th...

Rob C

[TMARK]

The S2 is a very tactile and pretty camera.  It just feels good, which is more important than many would admit.

It does have a similar look to the P30 but you don't buy an S2 for its sensor, you buy the camera.  The VF is one of the best, better than the H series, which is really good.  That's why I would buy one.

J,

 The part I don't understand is why you want a different camera (S2) if it has exactly the same Kodak sensor as a P30, and on top of that you lose the wonderful processing from C1
 I thought you liked the Contax experience. If you swap to the S2, what is gained here?

 Maybe you need more wine, women, drugs and rock and roll, or just a really quiet month in a Zen Monastery
 
Edmund

[fredjeang2]

 Maybe you need more wine, women, drugs and rock and roll, or just a really quiet month in a Zen Monastery
 

Drugs? Coot is already addicted: heavy work, stress, airports noise, stress, editing, 2 hours of sleep, airport
Women? He is a married man, and for what I've seen, no need to look elsewhere.
R&B? As a Texan, no need  more explainations
Wine? He has an office in Paris

No....

What may have happened is that he bought a Kia.

so...

for Coot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iYtGHKSG3M  and bought in Texas

for Rob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCIGrGX95F0

and for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-KNI6iG54

and for TMark, let's see...this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAWI9VlHFJM

[JV]

That said the 60/80mp Phase backs absolutely destroy the Leica in terms of resolution and I believe dynamic range also when used at base iso. So the Leica is in some middle ground since the 35mm format cameras have come so far in image quality. I felt it is a Body and Lenses looking for a sensor. Phase is the opposite, it is looking for a body since the Imaqe Quality is second to none.

Hi Ken,

I am not disagreeing with this but if you are mainly shooting people you don't need 60-80 MP, 22-30 MP is more than sufficient, 40 MP probably already overkill.

More and more I see 2 main directions in MFD:

1) landscape, architecture, re-production, etc: tech camera + Phase One IQx60/IQx80
2) fashion, people, portraits: S2 or H5d-40 or DF+IQ140

If you are in the 2nd group cooter's rule of thumb of $10K make sense IMO because the difference with other smaller and cheaper formats is no longer big enough to justify the investment.

Joris.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Just to say, there are other means of re-production…

Best regards
Erik

1) landscape, architecture, re-production, etc: tech camera + Phase One IQx60/IQx80

[EricWHiss]

The S2 is a very tactile and pretty camera.  It just feels good, which is more important than many would admit.

It does have a similar look to the P30 but you don't buy an S2 for its sensor, you buy the camera.  The VF is one of the best, better than the H series, which is really good.  That's why I would buy one.

I have to say after using the R8/R9 for a few years, I had different expectations for the Leica S system.  I did think the viewfinder was very good, but not better than either the H or the Rolleiflex (but better than the Phase/Mamiya DF), plus you have no other options.  I'm not a fan of the 90 degree SLR shooting position either.  I think images look better taken a bit lower with the 45 degree finder position and that position is much more stable for shooting since you hold the camera closer to your body.   It's one of my grips about the DF and the S.   I always assumed people bought into the S system mostly for the lenses? But I've not seen anything compelling showing how they are so much better than other offerings actually.

I do agree with BC about the Kodak sensors having a different look than the Dalsa, but after using digital backs with both for a few years, I'm not sure that I think one is better than the other. They are just different. The Dalsa can produce a file with more film like 'grain' to it.

[Ken R]

Hi Ken,

I am not disagreeing with this but if you are mainly shooting people you don't need 60-80 MP, 22-30 MP is more than sufficient, 40 MP probably already overkill.

More and more I see 2 main directions in MFD:

1) landscape, architecture, re-production, etc: tech camera + Phase One IQx60/IQx80
2) fashion, people, portraits: S2 or H5d-40 or DF+IQ140

If you are in the 2nd group cooter's rule of thumb of $10K make sense IMO because the difference with other smaller and cheaper formats is no longer big enough to justify the investment.

Joris.

Yeah, for people specially 3/4 shots and headshots 40mp is more than enough. In fact, a 20mp would do. More important, in that case, would be the color and skin tone rendition, post processing would have a lot to do with it as would lens/optical rendering.

[Doug Peterson]

I am not disagreeing with this but if you are mainly shooting people you don't need 60-80 MP, 22-30 MP is more than sufficient, 40 MP probably already overkill.

More and more I see 2 main directions in MFD:

1) landscape, architecture, re-production, etc: tech camera + Phase One IQx60/IQx80
2) fashion, people, portraits: S2 or H5d-40 or DF+IQ140

#2 is also very well satistified by an DF+IQX60 or IQX80 in sensor+ mode. Which provides ISO up to 3200 and faster frame rate and still either 15mp or 20mp (which, with c1v7, a sharp lens and no AA filter, and coming from a large sensor array - is much better than you'd think if your point of comparison is a dSLR).

[Ken R]

#2 is also very well satistified by an DF+IQX60 or IQX80 in sensor+ mode. Which provides ISO up to 3200 and faster frame rate and still either 15mp or 20mp (which, with c1v7, a sharp lens and no AA filter, and coming from a large sensor array - is much better than you'd think if your point of comparison is a dSLR).

Doug, I though I was not going to use sensor + but I have started experimenting with it and the results are awesome. It just extends the capability of the IQ160 tremendously. I know 15mp does not sound like much but they are very clean and sharp 15mp files like you have mentioned. Very different from DSLR files that are larger in size but not as crisp as the 15mp sensor + files.

[eronald]

#2 is also very well satistified by an DF+IQX60 or IQX80 in sensor+ mode. Which provides ISO up to 3200 and faster frame rate and still either 15mp or 20mp (which, with c1v7, a sharp lens and no AA filter, and coming from a large sensor array - is much better than you'd think if your point of comparison is a dSLR).

Doug,

With all due respect, in low light you don't use F8. So the back may give great files but if it's a Phamiya I'd be surprised if it focuses as well as your average D4 or 1Dx. In fact, you know what? If I agree that you can plausibly claim the IQ has a considerably better file than the dSLR, then as an ex-Phamiya owner I also think that Nikon and Canon can plausibly claim that the dSLRs have considerably better focus abilities than the Phamiyas, live view (helps for focus, sometimes), faster lenses, and less mirror-induced shake.

Edmund