First Medium Format Purchase - My Head is Going to Explode

[ToddP]

Yep, first post.  Anyway, here goes...  I must say I have practiced some restraint searching for (and not buying) the first system that seems like a good deal.  I have been wanting to take the Medium Format plunge for a while now, and as I get closer to pulling the trigger on a system, my head starts to spin at the choices, marketing bamboozlement, image quality, crop factors, etc. 

I shoot weddings as my main source of business and to support other things I like to photograph, which are people/lifestyle, a bit of food, and editorial work that can span the gamut.  I shoot with a D3 and D800, with mainly fixed primes.  I would like to start and transition away from weddings and do more commercial, editorial, and portraiture work.  Instead of going all in like I normally do, I am trying to figure if a better move would be to start off with a smaller and/or older system to see if I really enjoy working with MF? 

I've narrowed down the possibilities to a Phase or Leaf back.  Now the marketing would have you believe that the Leaf backs aren't as amazing and rugged at a Phase, and maybe there's a bit of truth to that - but I am not going to be shooting in a rain storm, nor having people stand on the back itself.  I am a touch concerned about it being a little bit more exposed than the Phase... but once again, maybe that's just marketing?  There are most likely plenty of people still going strong with the Leaf backs.  However, I don't know how thrilled I am about a little fan whirring by my face the whole time I shoot.  Do I spend a bit more a get a Phase back that's silent?  Hmmm....  Looking at the DM22/28 vs Phase P25+ or 40+  I am guessing the image quality is going to be similar with these backs, minus each manufacturer's rendering profiles.

I guess I am looking for some experience (I know... it's all subjective) to help me avoid buyer's remorse; but not in the way of wishing I hadn't bought a system in the first place - I want to avoid buying a system I am not completely thrilled with.  It seems like the low end is around $6-$7K for a something along these lines, which is totally doable.  But for a few thousand more, I can get... hehe...  Here we go. 

Thanks for any advice in advance. 

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

First: Welcome aboard!

Now to your post:
Its very simple.
A single word.

Rent!

Tons of advice will follow in this thread and be found on these forums if you search a little, but in the end you will need to rent and test.
Most dealers will pay you back the rent price when you purchase if you talk to them ahead.

Cheers
~Chris

[Doug Peterson]

#1) Renting, especially from a dealer that can credit your rental towards a purchase is a great way to avoid buyer's remorse. I can't speak for all dealers, but that is something we do very frequently.

#2) In studio testing at a dealer, if you're near enough to a dealer to come for a few hours or have a trip coming up to a major photo city, is a no cost way to get some hands on experience with. Most of the specialized dealers will have no problem setting you up with some lighting, a small space to shoot in, and time to play. Or in your case, perhaps walking around the city and shooting, as that more closely emulates most wedding work than in-studio testing. This isn't as useful as #1, but useful none the less.

#3) Before you get to that point, working with a dealer that can provide raw files, from weddings, shot with the backs you're considering is another good way of doing your own analysis. This isn't as useful as #1 and #2 but it's still worth doing, especially to narrow down your options for when you do #1 or #2.

Working with a dealer also means you'll be getting a system with warranty and support/training. The former is nice because of the high cost of repair in medium format (remember the system you are buying for e.g. $7k used to cost e.g. $30k). Being new to medium format the later will come in handy, especially when it comes to Capture One, which will get the most out of your phase or leaf files.

[eronald]

+1

BTW, Leaf and Phase and Mamiya all seem to belong to Phase now.
I don't know how they can have so many models with so few sales.

Edmund
 

First: Welcome aboard!

Now to your post:
Its very simple.
A single word.

Rent!

Tons of advice will follow in this thread and be found on these forums if you search a little, but in the end you will need to rent and test.
Most dealers will pay you back the rent price when you purchase if you talk to them ahead.

Cheers
~Chris

[Doug Peterson]

As a wedding shooter myself (full disclosure, see my signature for my 9-5 job), who frequently uses medium format, the build quality of the back is important, but I think you might be over placing it's importance relative to other elements of performance and usability.

The P40+, especially when processed in C1, produces beautiful ISO1600 sensor+ files, something the Leaf backs can't come even close to. This means you can extend the use of the P40+ into parts of the wedding day which the Leaf back would have to go back in the day for.

To be clear, at nearly every wedding there are parts which are better shot with a dSLR, especially if you don't have a second shooter. Events like the "bride's bouquet toss" are too fast moving, and usually in too low of light, to justify medium format over a good dSLR. So at every wedding I have a MFD system, a dSLR, and a backup camera (as of recently this is a Fuji X-Pro 1).

But it's still nice that I don't have to put the MFD system away every time I walk around the corner to a slightly less bright environment.

Bride/Groom portraits are easy pickings for MFD:

ISO800

The "Details" shots are ripe for MFD (any back):

ISO50

And more spontaneous work is also absolutely possible with MFD, once you get dialed into the system:

ISO140

[Doug Peterson]

BTW, Leaf and Phase and Mamiya all seem to belong to Phase now.
I don't know how they can have so many models with so few sales.

Partly the appearance of having "so many models" comes from the fact that the backs break/die so infrequently that the pre-owned market is vibrant even SEVERAL generations back. We sell P non plus backs all the time, which were first made in 2004; I wager there is not as much activity selling used Canon 20Ds (also from 2004) in the pro market.

There are really only three "current" backs on the P1 side and three "current" backs on the Mamiya/Leaf side: IQ260. But they/we still sell a lot of IQ1, P+, P non plus, Aptus, and Aptus II backs.

But I, too, am sometimes surprised a the diversity of products in the high-end speciality market. Whether you're talking about the number of models of backs, or the number of brands that make tech cameras.

[eronald]

Partly the appearance of having "so many models" comes from the fact that the backs break/die so infrequently that the pre-owned market is vibrant even SEVERAL generations back. We sell P non plus backs all the time, which were first made in 2004; I wager there is not as much activity selling used Canon 20Ds (also from 2004) in the pro market.

There are really only three "current" backs on the P1 side and three "current" backs on the Mamiya/Leaf side: IQ260. But they/we still sell a lot of IQ1, P+, P non plus, Aptus, and Aptus II backs.

But I, too, am sometimes surprised a the diversity of products in the high-end speciality market. Whether you're talking about the number of models of backs, or the number of brands that make tech cameras.

I am surprised at the impressive quality of your wedding work!
Few dealers use what they sell.

BTW, I got an old used 400D, and it actually makes very good pictures for my purposes. I think people underrate the plastic fantastics of the consumer market, they are really well tailored to private use.

Edmund

[ToddP]

All good suggestions - thank you everyone.  Doug, I would definitely bring MF to my weddings, but the system would have limited use, unless the settings were ideal.  Using all 1.4 glass and my Nikon bodies, my clients would be hard pressed to tell much difference.  Plus, the focusing system on the D3 is hard to beat - only the D4 tops it, IMHO.  I am interested in a system for location/editorial work like a couple of these images attached.  With that in mind, high ISO isn't really a huge issue since a lot of my work is lit and controlled.  I just want something that works when it has to and produces stunning results. 

Studio testing doesn't really do me any good.  It's just my personality.  I need to take a camera for a serious test drive, and so renting would be the way to go for that. That being said, I've played around with the Phase DF+ IQ180 for 20 minutes or so, and tried some of the different lenses.  It was fun, but difficult to really work it out in the parking lot of Bear Images
I've got a friend with a Contax with a 75s attached, so I will reach out to him for the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Again, thanks for the helpful suggestions.

Todd

[Ken R]

Hi, for working on location (untethered) the PhaseOne IQ backs are superb. I own the IQ160 and although I mainly got it for landscape to use on a tech camera I have used it on a H1 and used sensor+ and works great (iso200-1600). The files are 15mp in sensor plus but look awesome. With the IQ180/280 they are 20mp in sensor+. The rear screen (lcd) in the IQ backs is also superb and the ability to check focus will give you a lot of confidence from day 1. Obviously the IQ backs are superb in the studio with strobes and for landscape and architecture (on tech cameras) so they are very versatile.

I also tried the Leica S and it is a superb camera and lens system. The lenses are superb and work great wide open (they are designed to). But the system is also very expensive and closed so no upgrade path other than changing the body. Also the sensor is not as big as the one in the phase 60 and 80 mp backs so the DOF is not as shallow on the Leica given equals. Also I really like the 4/3 frame of the phase backs.

Even with the smaller IQ140/P40+ backs you can get a really nice look in your images. Using medium format will alter your style a bit. It is slower to work with and not as convenient. I really like the larger viewfinder. If you have not used one rent a MF camera and test it out. Or go to one of the dealers, I'm sure they can arrange a demo for you.

[Doug Peterson]

All good suggestions - thank you everyone.  Doug, I would definitely bring MF to my weddings, but the system would have limited use, unless the settings were ideal.  Using all 1.4 glass and my Nikon bodies, my clients would be hard pressed to tell much difference.

As one of several difference that anyone could notice: On a DF+ with leaf shutter lenses flash sync at up to 1/1600 means fill flash can be done from great distance with a standard canon/nikon speedlight. This means you can shoot wide open for an outdoor portrait or during an outdoor ceremony from further (with longer lenses). In contrast in my experience the HSS setting on Canon/Nikon used to sync above their focal plane limit reduces the effective power of the flash so far that you can only shoot at close distances which means either you can't use fill flash or you have to be much closer to the subject.

Studio testing doesn't really do me any good.  It's just my personality.  I need to take a camera for a serious test drive, and so renting would be the way to go for that. That being said, I've played around with the Phase DF+ IQ180 for 20 minutes or so, and tried some of the different lenses.  It was fun, but difficult to really work it out in the parking lot of Bear Images
I've got a friend with a Contax with a 75s attached, so I will reach out to him for the good, the bad, and the ugly.

IQ180 is not well suited for what you do. Too slow and needless resolution.

I think we're back to the advice you keep getting: rental. We (or other dealers) can ship you a back/body/lens for you to use in the real world for a few days. Then either you find you hate it and you spent a little money to find out you don't need to spend a lot of money, OR you find you love it and the rental cost is counted toward the purchase. A Contax, like any tool, can be used to make amazing images (see: BCs work) but in general it's not my #1 recommendation for a location editorial photographer who is just getting into medium format. Limited flash sync speed, availability of warranty/rental/repair being the two top reasons.

I think you'll also find some of the usability improvements of the Aptus II series to be advantages compared to the Aptus S series. Especially in light of the minimal difference in cost now between a new-with-warranty-with-support-from-dealer Aptus II 7 and a used-from-ebay Aptus 75s.

[Joe Towner]

Good to know you have found Bear Images is local to you.  Shooting with the IQ180 isn't a grand idea, as it's teasing you with megapixels most will never need, but it's extremely sexy to look at.  Get a proper demo/rental setup and really dig into the details as to how you'd be shooting with one.  Lots of refurb and used gear to select from, so figure out what your budget can afford, and have fun with it.

[synn]

Yep, first post.  Anyway, here goes...  I must say I have practiced some restraint searching for (and not buying) the first system that seems like a good deal.  I have been wanting to take the Medium Format plunge for a while now, and as I get closer to pulling the trigger on a system, my head starts to spin at the choices, marketing bamboozlement, image quality, crop factors, etc. 

I shoot weddings as my main source of business and to support other things I like to photograph, which are people/lifestyle, a bit of food, and editorial work that can span the gamut.  I shoot with a D3 and D800, with mainly fixed primes.  I would like to start and transition away from weddings and do more commercial, editorial, and portraiture work.  Instead of going all in like I normally do, I am trying to figure if a better move would be to start off with a smaller and/or older system to see if I really enjoy working with MF? 

I've narrowed down the possibilities to a Phase or Leaf back.  Now the marketing would have you believe that the Leaf backs aren't as amazing and rugged at a Phase, and maybe there's a bit of truth to that - but I am not going to be shooting in a rain storm, nor having people stand on the back itself.  I am a touch concerned about it being a little bit more exposed than the Phase... but once again, maybe that's just marketing?  There are most likely plenty of people still going strong with the Leaf backs.  However, I don't know how thrilled I am about a little fan whirring by my face the whole time I shoot.  Do I spend a bit more a get a Phase back that's silent?  Hmmm....  Looking at the DM22/28 vs Phase P25+ or 40+  I am guessing the image quality is going to be similar with these backs, minus each manufacturer's rendering profiles.

I guess I am looking for some experience (I know... it's all subjective) to help me avoid buyer's remorse; but not in the way of wishing I hadn't bought a system in the first place - I want to avoid buying a system I am not completely thrilled with.  It seems like the low end is around $6-$7K for a something along these lines, which is totally doable.  But for a few thousand more, I can get... hehe...  Here we go. 

Thanks for any advice in advance. 

I'm on the same boat as you. Gonna make my purchase very shortly; had a thread up here a few weeks ago and received a lot of good advice. I have since demoed some gear and these are my, very personal and subjective observations.

1) Build quality: The Leaf Aptus backs indeed have an exposed battery, some vents etc. so theoretically, they are less weather resistant that the Phase backs. Doesn't make them less rugged, though. The build quality is pretty tough.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot with any of these backs in harsh weather like one might do with a pro DSLR. I know there are people who have; just ain't my thing with so much money on the line.

The Aptus fans don't work all the time (At least, not when I was using one), but the backs do have a big honking beep when they start up!

2) Screen quality: Given your genre, you have similar requirements as me (Untethered, mostly. I do fine art, on location portraiture). I am not quite sure if the Phase P series backs have a screen good enough for this. The Aptus screens are low res by current day standards and somewhat dim, but they are indeed good enough for focus confirmation.

The Phase IQ and Leaf Credo backs are pretty much on par when it comes to build. The screen is awesome and you don't need to tether to confirm focus. They are also overall more responsive than the older gen backs.

I have no serious experience with Hasselblad gear other than handing one for a very short period of time, but they are a cost effective option to enter the MF field. The upgrade path isn't as easy as with Phase/ Leaf, though.

Lastly, do try to go for the DF+ body. I was pleasantly surprised at the AF performance. Yes, there are only 3 points (And let's be honest, only one is really usable), but it locks on pretty fast and is very accurate. The build did feel better than the old AF-D bodies.

I'd skip the V-Grip. It's needlessly overpriced and the build quality is on par with the $40 ebay grips for Canikon.


Good luck.

[ToddP]

 

Shooting with the IQ180 isn't a grand idea, as it's teasing you with megapixels most will never need, but it's extremely sexy to look at.

Totally agree with you there.  I knew that going into it, but it was fun for sure.  I am definitely in line with finding the right system that fits my work, and the 40mp range is where I seem to be.  I would like to have a 1.1 crop factor vs the 1.3, but I'm not sure why.  I figure a bigger sensor will look better and have more of a MF feel to it.  Am I wrong on that front, or is that a whole other can of worms?

As one of several difference that anyone could notice: On a DF+ with leaf shutter lenses flash sync at up to 1/1600 means fill flash can be done from great distance with a standard canon/nikon speedlight. This means you can shoot wide open for an outdoor portrait or during an outdoor ceremony from further (with longer lenses). In contrast in my experience the HSS setting on Canon/Nikon used to sync above their focal plane limit reduces the effective power of the flash so far that you can only shoot at close distances which means either you can't use fill flash or you have to be much closer to the subject.

Doug, I am well versed with the different flash systems out there, having used quite a few - Profoto, Broncolor, Alien Bees, Speedlights -  1/1600 is deliciously tempting, and an influence as to why I want to head into MF.  That being said, I have lights that can overpower the sun, they just take so damn long to set up!  Actually, not all that long.  It took me about 10 minutes to take the portrait of the guy by the Golden Gate Bridge.  Thank god for assistants!

Also, I was thinking about the DM22/28, but it seems they cannot sync up to 1/1600 and their iso is pretty limited... so they are out.

A Contax, like any tool, can be used to make amazing images (see: BCs work) but in general it's not my #1 recommendation for a location editorial photographer who is just getting into medium format. Limited flash sync speed, availability of warranty/rental/repair being the two top reasons.  I think you'll also find some of the usability improvements of the Aptus II series to be advantages compared to the Aptus S series. Especially in light of the minimal difference in cost now between a new-with-warranty-with-support-from-dealer Aptus II 7 and a used-from-ebay Aptus 75s.

I am on board with the DF+ Body.  It's just finding the back that's going to work for me and my wallet.  My point was that I've got a great contact (that I sort of forgot about) that can give me their take on the back after using if for 3-4 years.  But as I type this, I seem to be leaning towards a Phase DB anyway, but it never hurts to chat.

Even with the smaller IQ140/P40+ backs you can get a really nice look in your images. Using medium format will alter your style a bit. It is slower to work with and not as convenient. I really like the larger viewfinder. If you have not used one rent a MF camera and test it out. Or go to one of the dealers, I'm sure they can arrange a demo for you.

Indeed Ken.  I love looking through the viewfinder too - so much real estate + bigger.  The zoom feature is nice, but not a deal maker/breaker for me.  And I can always update the back down the road if I decide I have to have it... from all those missed shots.  Nooooooooo!  I will say this, shooting primes at f1.4 and f2.0 has definitely made me a better shooter, thus I feel I can handle a P+ back sans review.

[camgarner]

I currently use a D800E and an IQ260.  Before the IQ260 I shot with the Leica S.  I can't add anything new to what's already been said with one exception.  You should consider your workflow for image processing.  To me, the big negative going to Phase One was having to use Capture One software.  Although, it is a great piece of software you will need to process your images in Capture One to get the most out of them.  Prior to owning a Phase One system I used LR and PS exclusivity.  Now I need to import images to Capture One then export them to LR.  This is an added step that's a real pain.  If your not committed to LR then no problem. 

[sarinale]

I work with a P30+ on a Hasselblad H2. Based on your post that seems to be a system you could get.
It is available used at very attractive prices, has leaf shutter lenses, really nice quality at 400 ISO and is great for people shots even with the basic 80 mm lens.

Unless you really need extensive dealer support, I would get this combination. Personally I do not think that a camera is such a complicated item and I do not see the value of the dealer support other than for repairs and/or warranty. But the warranty will in any case be limited to 1 year max.

I have tried the Phase/Mamiya body and did not like it at all (the last version I used was the Phase one AF though) but really like the Hasselblad system. If you want more recent features, you can even get the h4x body (which is expensive though).

If you buy the Phase P30+ and h2 combination used (you can find this for $7 k), you will not go wrong. Even if you don't like it you can sell it again and not lose more than you would pay for 2 days renting.

Kind regards,
Alex

[Doug Peterson]

I work with a P30+ on a Hasselblad H2. Based on your post that seems to be a system you could get.
It is available used at very attractive prices, has leaf shutter lenses, really nice quality at 400 ISO and is great for people shots even with the basic 80 mm lens.

Unless you really need extensive dealer support, I would get this combination. Personally I do not think that a camera is such a complicated item and I do not see the value of the dealer support other than for repairs and/or warranty. But the warranty will in any case be limited to 1 year max.

I have tried the Phase/Mamiya body and did not like it at all (the last version I used was the Phase one AF though) but really like the Hasselblad system. If you want more recent features, you can even get the h4x body (which is expensive though).

If you buy the Phase P30+ and h2 combination used (you can find this for $7 k), you will not go wrong. Even if you don't like it you can sell it again and not lose more than you would pay for 2 days renting.

Mind you we, as a dealer, sell a lot of this and similar combinations (P30+, P25+, P40+, Aptus II 7, Aptus 75, on used H1s, H2s, or pre-owned DFs, DF+). So it's not a choice of buy-something-recent-from-a-dealer or buy-something-used-from-eBay. Especially with items like a P30+ you'll find our pre-owned pricing, with warranty and support, is very competitive to the average eBay sale of the same back without warranty/support.

The Phase One AF compared to a Phase One DF+ is night and day in any number of areas, speed of focusing, quality of lens availability, build quality, reliability, features, and lag. The OP may love that body; he may also connect better to a H body – only he can tell that. I'm just saying that your experience with an AF is not very good point of comparison for someone evaluating a DF+.

[ToddP]

If you buy the Phase P30+ and h2 combination used (you can find this for $7 k), you will not go wrong. Even if you don't like it you can sell it again and not lose more than you would pay for 2 days renting.

Alex, in many ways, those are my sentiments and actions.  I picked up a great deal on a Nikon 200-400 f4, and will most likely make money on it when the time comes to sell!  I looked at renting, but for the time I needed it, it made more sense to buy a used one.  I feel the same about MF, but...

Mind you we, as a dealer, sell a lot of this and similar combinations (P30+, P25+, P40+, Aptus II 7, Aptus 75, on used H1s, H2s, or pre-owned DFs, DF+). So it's not a choice of buy-something-recent-from-a-dealer or buy-something-used-from-eBay. Especially with items like a P30+ you'll find our pre-owned pricing, with warranty and support, is very competitive to the average eBay sale of the same back without warranty/support.

...what Doug says is absolutely true too.  After snooping around eBay, prices are fairly competitive.  Plus, if a customer who babies their equipment wants to upgrade, the dealer knows this and can contact me with a nice back vs "always babied" in the eBay tagline... and then I find out it's not  And with being a bit unfamiliar with MFDB's, it would be nice to have support if I needed it.  I understand systems very well, but I reckon if something's not going to work, it'll happen sooner than later.  It's nice to have some sort of warranty and/or dealer around when it does.  

Regarding the body - I will stick with the Phase DF+  The Hassy feels a little plasticky to me, and moving forward, I think the Phase is the right choice for me.  

Now I need to import images to Capture One then export them to LR.  This is an added step that's a real pain.  If your not committed to LR then no problem.  

camgarner - I use LR, but I have no issues using C1.  The way it renders the RAW files is the best.  Why drop so much coin to get lackluster results with a cheap (in comparison) program, even if it adds time?  For me and MF, less is more.  But absolutely something to consider - thanks for the info!

[sarinale]

Hi, maybe you should try the options yourself after all. I hear that the new Phase DF+ is an OK camera but I would recommend you try it before you buy. The shutter lag of previous models was such that it was not usable for people shots at all.

The Hasselblad was much better in this regard. Concerning the use of plastic I do not think there is much difference as both are ten year old designs and cannot compete with DSLRs or Leicas regarding build quality.

If you find a truly competitive offer from a dealer it may be the best path, but if price is important to you I am sure you will find a much better deal when buying from a private seller (especially on the Hasselblad as this system seems to be losing market share).

[Richard Osbourne]

I bought my first MFDB last year (P45+) with an old Mamiya AF-D and a nice Cambo tech camera. I'm really just getting used to using them after a decade of using Canon. The cameras and way of working really take some getting used to compared with Canon's engineering excellence and 100% uptime. In fact, they are really clunky and sometimes just plain unreliable. BUT, BUT! The image quality is to die for. Really, after 10's of thousands of images I'm still stunned every time I see the results on the back or, better, on a big screen or in print. I forgive everything for that image quality!

As has been said, it's also worth getting to know C1 (or Phocus) as it really does get the best out of the files, especially the latest version. The workflow is different if you aren't already using it and that's been part of the learning curve - knowing what I have to get right in camera and what I can correct / push later.

[bcooter]

I also tried the Leica S and it is a superb camera and lens system. The lenses are superb and work great wide open (they are designed to). But the system is also very expensive and closed so no upgrade path other than changing the body. Also the sensor is not as big as the one in the phase 60 and 80 mp backs so the DOF is not as shallow on the Leica given equals. Also I really like the 4/3 frame of the phase backs.

S2's are going for 10k and under.   

check this out.

Nice semi real world test.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race

BC