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Author Topic: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic  (Read 63890 times)

Ken R

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2013, 12:28:54 pm »

To put it simply, this "stupid camera test" with stupid raw files got me convinced on the a A7r! Amazon has it for less than $2300.
Stupid test, stupid cameras, stupid buyers....eh! Whadaya gonna do?! :-)

Thanks Chris.


I just rented that stupid camera should be here in a few days. (A7R + Canon EF lens adapter)  ;D ;D
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2013, 12:43:46 pm »

That's just so stupid Ken! :-) hehehehe

I was going to be even more stupid and buy it for $2200 off Amazon

Who's renting it out?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:45:33 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Ken R

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2013, 12:59:30 pm »

That's just so stupid Ken! :-) hehehehe

I was going to be even more stupid and buy it for $2200 off Amazon

Who's renting it out?

lensrentals.com
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Telecaster

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2013, 04:28:23 pm »

Oh and I also like Chris's taste, a Herman Miller fan and a nice movie selection...perhaps we can start a rental program for the flix?  :-P

Gotta credit Charles & Ray Eames with the chair design too! And Chris has the recent Eames doc on DVD, so the rental program will definitely be of some value.   ;D

-Dave-
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2013, 04:47:27 pm »

Absolutely. Although I have seen it (Netflix has great docs), a repeat wouldn't be bad. Of course, after others. I'm not in a rush ;-)
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tho_mas

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #125 on: January 03, 2014, 09:14:17 am »

And yet another stupid comparison … but sometimes it's just fun.
It doesn't deserve an own thread so I thought I'll just add it here. I hope Chris don't mind.

P45 on Contax 645, Zeiss CZ Planar 2.0/80 @ f8, ISO50, 1/60'', 39MP
versus
Sony A7R, Zeiss ZM Planar 2.0/50 @ f8, ISO50, 1/60'', 36MP

Actually I've tested some things with my 55mm lens on the Contax in the backyard. Since the tripod was in place I thought why not quickly compare the Contax/P45 and the A7R?!
This is why the position of the tripod remained the same. However, coincidentally the lenses cover almost the same height of the scene. Horizontally A7R shows a wider part of the scene (naturally). So the magnification of the scene is somewhat larger on the P45 and this is why the comparison is a bit in favour for the P45.
Also, the ZM Planar 50 is a bit sharper at f5.6 on the A7R while the Contax 2.0/80 shows about the same crispness at f5.6 and f8 on the P45.
Too, there are certainly better lenses for the A7R - but on a tech cam with digital large format lenses also the P45 would look better. So lens wise I think the test is pretty fair.
Then again: who cares :-) This isn't for science ...

Sorry - the scene is totally boring! (But it's great to check the registration of my split screen… so…)

Enough said… here it is (P45 on the left, A7R on the right in all screenshots).
Have fun!


Scene:



100% crop near center:



100% crop from the right edge:



Shadow detail … these crops come from the corner on the bottom right.
I've pushed exposure on both shots by 4 stops in C1.


100% crop, +4EV, without NR applied:



100% crop, +4EV, with NR applied on the P45 (in addition some slight color adjustment):



I am really amazed how well the little A7R performs with an adapted ZM lens (not particularly in this test... but in general). And the camera will certainly have a place in my kit (mainly for stitching, though).
I am also amazed how well the 8 years old sensor of the P45 compares to the latest and greatest 35mm sensor in this comparison (however, in low light, especially tungsten, things will look worse).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 06:37:04 am by tho_mas »
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Telecaster

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #126 on: January 03, 2014, 03:57:03 pm »

Very impressive performance from the Sony/Zeiss combo, tho_mas. Aren't you in "shutter shock" territory with a 1/60th sec. Tv? Sure don't see it.

IMO the A7r is so close. Put a quieter shutter in there and (perhaps) do a better job of minimizing vibration, and Bob's yer Uncle.

-Dave-
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EricWHiss

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #127 on: January 03, 2014, 03:59:25 pm »

Tho_mas
Thanks for sharing that.  Like you wrote, it's interesting how well the  p45 holds up to a new design but also how good the Sony is.   How many generations old is the p45 now?  P45, P45+, IQ1, IQ 2?  

One observation, you can see the differences in the DOF between format sizes by looking at the branch in the foreground all the way left on bottom. It's much more OOF in the MF than in the 135.   Did you focus on the building or at infinity?

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Manoli

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #128 on: January 03, 2014, 04:54:37 pm »

Very impressive performance from the Sony/Zeiss combo, tho_mas. Aren't you in "shutter shock" territory with a 1/60th sec. Tv? Sure don't see it.
IMO the A7r is so close. Put a quieter shutter in there and (perhaps) do a better job of minimizing vibration, and Bob's yer Uncle.

I've been following the blog of one of our fellow members, Jim Kasson, for some time . He's been researching and writing on 'vibration and resolution issues, particularly regarding the D800 and now the Sony A7r. Jim appears to combine an extremely high level of technical expertise with a healthy dose of pragmatism . a welcome breath of fresh air.

His Jan-1 posting included these words:
<<
It’s a challenging business. So challenging, in fact, that we should think about whether or not the changes we can see in this very controlled testing situation aren’t unimportant in real field use. When all is said and done, the effects of the shutter shock are on the same order as the focusing errors under nearly ideal conditions.
>>


Recommended.

http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140101

--
ps
Tho_mas - thanks for posting this !
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 05:11:35 pm by Manoli »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #129 on: January 03, 2014, 05:32:59 pm »

Hi,

Yes, Jim has a lot of good stuff!

Best regards
Erik

I've been following the blog of one of our fellow members, Jim Kasson, for some time . He's been researching and writing on 'vibration and resolution issues, particularly regarding the D800 and now the Sony A7r. Jim appears to combine an extremely high level of technical expertise with a healthy dose of pragmatism . a welcome breath of fresh air.

His Jan-1 posting included these words:
<<
It’s a challenging business. So challenging, in fact, that we should think about whether or not the changes we can see in this very controlled testing situation aren’t unimportant in real field use. When all is said and done, the effects of the shutter shock are on the same order as the focusing errors under nearly ideal conditions.
>>


Recommended.

http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140101

--
ps
Tho_mas - thanks for posting this !

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Erik Kaffehr
 

Telecaster

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #130 on: January 03, 2014, 06:41:25 pm »

http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140101

Yeah, I've been following Jim's blog but hadn't read that last one. Hmmm...given that I take photos mainly handheld (aside from the Pentax, which for me is a specialized tool and does lend itself to tripod use) and have no intention of changing that aspect of my approach due to the capabilities of any particular sensor, I think I can rule out "shutter shock" as a real-world issue with the A7r.

Another point: I have my eye on the evolving lineup of 4k displays. When I find one that meets my price/performance sweetspot I'll go for it. I'm not that interested in such a display for editing but rather presentation. It would replace my printer (and prints) for all but a small number of extra-wide panos. I can see switching an A7r into 16:9 format and leaving it there. The Sony offers enough resolution that I could do a 4:1 downsample of those photos and still nearly fill a 4k frame. Pretty cool!

Time to ruminate some more.   ;)

-Dave-
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #131 on: January 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm »

Hi,

Myself shoot mostly on tripod. Not so much for stability but for composition and relaxed work. So I use tripod whenever practical.

What I would comment is more on the 4K displays. I do some printing, but I am essentially limited by wall space. What I do often with my pictures is making slide shows. Here I can also mix in motion. I find it a great way of presenting images. The only thing is that present day HD (1080P) doesn't have the quality I feel I need. So I really looking forward to 4K projectors coming down in price.

Best regards
Erik

Yeah, I've been following Jim's blog but hadn't read that last one. Hmmm...given that I take photos mainly handheld (aside from the Pentax, which for me is a specialized tool and does lend itself to tripod use) and have no intention of changing that aspect of my approach due to the capabilities of any particular sensor, I think I can rule out "shutter shock" as a real-world issue with the A7r.

Another point: I have my eye on the evolving lineup of 4k displays. When I find one that meets my price/performance sweetspot I'll go for it. I'm not that interested in such a display for editing but rather presentation. It would replace my printer (and prints) for all but a small number of extra-wide panos. I can see switching an A7r into 16:9 format and leaving it there. The Sony offers enough resolution that I could do a 4:1 downsample of those photos and still nearly fill a 4k frame. Pretty cool!

Time to ruminate some more.   ;)

-Dave-
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 02:54:37 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #132 on: January 03, 2014, 08:09:57 pm »

Hi,

I would suggest that the effect you see relates to longer focal length of Planar 80 compared to the Zeiss lens. The Planar would need stopping down one stop more to give equivalent DoF.

Best regards
Erik

Tho_mas
Thanks for sharing that.  Like you wrote, it's interesting how well the  p45 holds up to a new design but also how good the Sony is.   How many generations old is the p45 now?  P45, P45+, IQ1, IQ 2?  

One observation, you can see the differences in the DOF between format sizes by looking at the branch in the foreground all the way left on bottom. It's much more OOF in the MF than in the 135.   Did you focus on the building or at infinity?


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tho_mas

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #133 on: January 03, 2014, 09:52:38 pm »

Aren't you in "shutter shock" territory with a 1/60th sec. Tv? Sure don't see it.
With my kit I am not in shutter shock territory at all.
I've tested shutter shock with the ZM 2.0/50 carefully.

Kit:
For the time being I've mounted a Novoflex QPL1 (without rubber!) on the A7R.
Head is an Arca Swiss D4 (geared version).
Tripods tested are 2 wood tripods (large with single extension and center column, mid sized with 2 extensions and a flat mounting plate) and a small FLM carbon with 3 extensions and center column.
I could not detect any sign of shutter shock at any shutter speed on one of these tripods shooting in landscape or portrait orientation at close or far distance (everything carefully tightened and locked down).
I do see shutter shock with an old Linhof ballhead when all connections are damped with rubber & cork.

Me personally I take from this is that shutter shock is not a problem at all when you use decent plates, tripod head and trripod. At least not in conjunction with the small, light ZM Planar 50mm ( right now I only have this lens for the A7R).

Hope this helps....

« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 10:12:33 pm by tho_mas »
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tho_mas

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #134 on: January 03, 2014, 10:01:15 pm »

Did you focus on the building or at infinity?
I've focused on the roof exactly in the center of the image. It's around 50 meters distance. So for the 50mm lens its infinity (focused using live view) and for the 80mm lens it's short before infinity (focused on custom shimmed split screen).
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Telecaster

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2014, 11:31:08 pm »

What I would comment is more on the 4K displays. I do some printing, but I am essentially limited by wall space. What I do often with my pictures is making side shows. Here I can also mix in motion. I find it a great way of presenting images. The only thing is that present day HD (1080P) doesn't have the quality I feel I need. So I really looking forward to 4K projectors coming down in price.

IMO that covers it nicely. Besides zooming & panning with stills I've also been shooting some video. I enjoy it! People are just used to looking at screens. I'm used to looking at screens.   :)  Might as well embrace that and go with it. A large HD screen can look coarse with still images, at least when you have a nice print to compare it to, but multiply the pixels 4x and I think we'll be in good shape.

-Dave-
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Telecaster

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #136 on: January 03, 2014, 11:42:38 pm »

With my kit I am not in shutter shock territory at all.
I've tested shutter shock with the ZM 2.0/50 carefully.

Me personally I take from this is that shutter shock is not a problem at all when you use decent plates, tripod head and tripod. At least not in conjunction with the small, light ZM Planar 50mm (right now I only have this lens for the A7R).

Hope this helps....

Yes, thanks. I own the ZM 50mm Planar too...as good as it gets without moving into exotic design territory à la the Leica 50/2 ASPH or the 55mm Otus. I've got the sturdy tripod gear (made for large format use) should I need/want it. A concern about the A7r I can, I suspect, dismiss.

-Dave-
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #137 on: January 04, 2014, 04:58:24 pm »

Hi,

I don't know. Lloyd initially discovered the problem on the Leica M. The reduction in sharpness is subtle. It obviously depends on factors. The effect is probably much less than mirror induced vibration on a DSLR. It may also be that once you notice the problem it is much more obvious than before.

My recent cameras have either electronic first curtain or central shutter, so I don't have observed this problem.

Quite obviously, Sony is using an old sensor for the A7r, probably the one used in the D800/D800E but without the OLP filter. So the old sensor doesn't have new features like electronic first curtain and on sensor phase detection AF. In all probability a new camera is in the works, with a sensor using smaller pixels and new features.

I am in favour of reducing pixel size within reasonable bounds. It may be diminishing returns, but I am pretty sure that smaller pixels will sharpen better, interpolate better and have less aliasing.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, thanks. I own the ZM 50mm Planar too...as good as it gets without moving into exotic design territory à la the Leica 50/2 ASPH or the 55mm Otus. I've got the sturdy tripod gear (made for large format use) should I need/want it. A concern about the A7r I can, I suspect, dismiss.

-Dave-
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Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2014, 05:14:35 am »

The Sony ARW2 format is non-linearly compressed, like gamma compression in jpegs and tiffs. Current dcraw release has a bug which causes only 12 bit to be extracted, it's easily patched to extract the full 14 bits though. I think rawdigger can use both dcraw and rawspeed decoding, I think rawspeed decoding should be correct.

I am somewhat surprised that A7r exif says 14 bit but RawDigger shows 12 bit data (going up to 1:4096) .

If we assume true 14 bit we would have 16384 values, but the significance of the LSBs (least significant bits) at high numbers would be very low. If we assume that FWC corresponds to 16384 the standard of deviation would be 128. It is quite obvious the last few bits only represent noise. On the low end more bits are used but the last two bits (or so) are still fairly stochastic, are they not?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 05:22:47 am by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Another Stupid Camera Test: IQ 260 / A7r / 5d2 / Epic
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2014, 10:16:54 am »

Hi Anders,

I found out, Raw digger calls it the ARW-fix.

Best regards
Erik

The Sony ARW2 format is non-linearly compressed, like gamma compression in jpegs and tiffs. Current dcraw release has a bug which causes only 12 bit to be extracted, it's easily patched to extract the full 14 bits though. I think rawdigger can use both dcraw and rawspeed decoding, I think rawspeed decoding should be correct.

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Erik Kaffehr
 
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