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Author Topic: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."  (Read 5447 times)

Some Guy

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Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« on: December 06, 2013, 09:14:05 pm »

Bought a "Canson Discovery Pack" of paper out of B&H Photo.  It came with 14 different sheets (1 of each) of their "Canson Infinity" papers.  The B&H website says 12 papers, but it came with 14.

Using an Epson 3880 printer with "dye" ink (Cone's, as I use it for metallic papers as the dye ink has more "pop" with metallics paper over pigment ink.).  I personally don't really care about longevity over the "pop" factor between the dye and pigment since I print for competition or maybe hang for a few year before something goes in their place.

I also left the Epson set to print with the "Matte Black Ink" since most of the paper in the pack is of the matte type or canvas, with a few glossy ones which I also left the printer to Matte Black (Being too cheap to want to waste ink on switching to Photo Black, and not seeing that much of a difference between the "dye" ink's Matte Black (MK) and glossy Photo Black (PK) on the paper's surfaces either during the x-rite ColorMunki Photo calibration chart printing.)

Profiled each sheet with the ColorMunki Photo using the normal procedure, except I printed the two charts needed on one sheet of paper for each single paper type in the package.  Epson allowed me to set a full-page chart to half-page in the driver's menu (Second tab, lower right.).  So print a chart, dry, read it, flip it around and print the second chart, dry, and read that one.  Fwiw, one can use a straight edge with the ColorMunki Photo every 7/8" below the chevron's point on the preceding printed line similar to the i1 PhotoPro 2's method. Then I let the software write the profile.  Took most of a day to do the 14 sheets too.

On day two, I printed a 1" square of RGB=0,0,0, Black in the middle of each sheet between the calibration charts.  I was looking to see what the maximum black ink density looked like on each type of paper using the new profiles.  I read those using the i1 PhotoPro 2 head and the ColorPort software while looking to read the visual density for that new black square.

Results follow from lightest black to darkest black:

Canson Infinity Bartya Photographique 310 gsm = 1.772 visual black density.
 * Paper above is very prone to showing scuff marks off the printer's roller, as well as the movement of the Munki over the surface.
Canson Infinity Photo Art HD Canvas 400 gsm = 1.801 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Montval Aquarelle 310 gsm = 1.836 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Arches Aquarelle 240 gsm = 1.863 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Arches Velin Museum Rag 250 gsm = 1.869 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Mi-teintes 170 gsm = 1.873 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Rag Photographique 210 gsm = 1.879 visual black density.
Canson Infinity BFK Rives 310 gsm = 1.890 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Rag Photographique 310 gsm = 1.907 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Edition Etching Rag 310 gsm = 1.916 visual black density.
Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag 310 gsm = 2.132 visual black density.
 * Paper is very prone to showing scuff marks off the printer's roller as well as the movement of the Munki over the surface.
Canson Infinity PhotoSatin Premium RC 270 gsm = 2.188 visual black density.
 * Paper is prone to showing scuff marks off the printer's roller, but less so with moving Munki over surface as above two.
Canson Infinity PhotoGloss Premium RC 270 gsm = 2.225 visual black density.
 * Paper is prone to showing scuff marks off the printer's roller as well as Munki scuff over surface.
Canson Infinity Photo HighGloss Premium RC 315 gsm = 2.268 visual black density.
 * Paper is very prone to showing scuff marks off the printer's roller as well as Munki scuff over surface. I also spotted some odd haze coming through from the back where the identifying label is attached which is puzzling, maybe the label's glue?  This is a thick RC paper and why that haze is present is odd but maybe being squeezed via the printer's rollers?

The Epson 3880, or at least mine, has a tendency to scuff the paper during the eject cycle as these were half-page prints so the second half of the page (blank) got the "Eject" notice and rapid kick out of the paper.  That might be the reason for the scuffs on the shinest/glossiest surfaces.  Looks to be about a one-inch wide by half-inch scuff mark where the roller may spin a bit on the surface to kick it out of the machine.  I'm not seeing any roller pizza wheel marks over the length as reported by some on any of them, just a short roller spin on the glossy surface that is much like a car tire spin.  None of the textured watercolor or canvas papers showed with that issue.

I'd imagine the black numbers might track the same for the OEM pigment inks as well.  These papers really can produce a dark black with the matte dye ink.

SG
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 04:59:13 am »


I'd imagine the black numbers might track the same for the OEM pigment inks as well.  These papers really can produce a dark black with the matte dye ink.

SG


No, pigment inks will not deliver the same Dmax on the matte papers, at best below 1.8 D, more likely approx 1.65 D. The Canson matte papers are also slightly behind in Dmax compared to Hahnemühle matte papers with MK pigment inks.

What surprises me more is that your density numbers on glossy papers are not near 2.4 D etc with dye inks, most PK pigment inks will get similar numbers you have here on the glossy papers. High Gloss being the exception. Dye should deliver more I think.

White sheets underneath the sheet measured?


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.


I would not expect the Cone PK and MK dye to be different, the ink channels have to be filled to let the printer function. It would be interesting to know whether that theory is correct.

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Some Guy

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Re: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 01:00:39 pm »

No, pigment inks will not deliver the same Dmax on the matte papers, at best below 1.8 D, more likely approx 1.65 D. The Canson matte papers are also slightly behind in Dmax compared to Hahnemühle matte papers with MK pigment inks.

What surprises me more is that your density numbers on glossy papers are not near 2.4 D etc with dye inks, most PK pigment inks will get similar numbers you have here on the glossy papers. High Gloss being the exception. Dye should deliver more I think.

White sheets underneath the sheet measured?

Hello Ernst.

Yes.  I measured the sheets with the black square on the i1 PhotoPro 2 table which is white.  I may try and read them later on a black piece of paper to see if they change.


Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
I would not expect the Cone PK and MK dye to be different, the ink channels have to be filled to let the printer function. It would be interesting to know whether that theory is correct.

I was sort of surprised the MK Black "dye ink" didn't reduce any glossy shine in the few sheets of glossy paper in the pack.  You're right that they do not seem different to maybe the pigment ink which has a duller appearance.  However, the black is very black though in the visual density in the Colorport software.

One odd thing I observed was that final black chevron in the ColorMunki Photo's first chart is a black of some sort.  It's density is darker than the RGB = 0,0,0 made one that I printed later with the new profiles it made.  It's like the ColorMunki puts out more ink in the initial calibration run, and then throttles back a bit in the final black I printed.  It's not a big difference, maybe 0.05  to 0.10 in the numbers, but the black in the calibration run is often darker than the final profile-made black that I printed.  Maybe some tonal adjustment is made in the final profile and it pulls the black dye back a bit?

SG
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 03:19:06 pm »

SG,

On black the numbers will be higher but this is fine, more related to reality.

If you select a B&W driver mode like ABW the ink lay down will be higher. With dye black the only limit is dotgain/bleeding that causes detail loss but the Dmax will always be on the 100% patch. With pigment you usually hit a point in the ink limits where more ink gives more reflection from the surface and the bleeding issue is beyond that limit.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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rgs

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Re: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 09:07:08 pm »

I have a Canon PRO 100 which is an 8 cart dye printer (CMYK, PM, PC, G, LG). I e-mailed Canson with some questions about dye ink and their paper. Within 2 hours, a rep called me to answer my questions. He was very knowledgeable and helpful and was kind enough to send me a sample pack like yours as well as 10 sample sheets of Platine - without charge! Talk about customer service.

Your results put numbers to my more subjective impressions of their papers with my dye printer. Here's what I found:

  • Hard surface glossy coated (baryta type) rag papers are generally flat and disappointing. Platine was better than most and quite good with B&W. Better for use with pigment inks.
  • Matte surface rag papers (fine art papers) can be very nice with dye inks. Many of the rag papers were really nice. My favorite is the 310 gsm version of Rag Photographique. It is beautiful with my printer.
  • RC papers are mostly quite good and the PhotoSatin Premium is likely to become my default paper, especially with Ilford becoming unreliable.
  • I did not see any problem with the super gloss. It printed well and did not have a veiled look (Ilford's super gloss film and Canon's Satin do). I just don't like that strong a gloss.

My printer has two paper feeds - one normal one (papers up to about 300 gsm) and a second one for hand fed thicker papers. None of the Canson papers were damaged by the printer providing they were fed in the correct slot. I did damage a couple of thicker sheets by putting them in the wrong slot. My fault. Not the printer's or the paper's.

Overall, I was very impressed with the Canson papers and my dye printer. I just wish they were more available locally, although I did find some stocked at our local Hobby Lobby with the art supplies. For the most part, it's mail order for Canson here so it was very nice of them to send the samples so I could know what I am ordering. They also have profiles for my printer available for download, something that has not always been true of third party papers and dye printers. I have become a Canson fan.
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Some Guy

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Re: Seeking black in the "Canson Infinity Paper's Discovery Pack."
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 10:38:14 pm »

I have a Canon PRO 100 which is an 8 cart dye printer (CMYK, PM, PC, G, LG). I e-mailed Canson with some questions about dye ink and their paper. Within 2 hours, a rep called me to answer my questions. He was very knowledgeable and helpful and was kind enough to send me a sample pack like yours as well as 10 sample sheets of Platine - without charge! Talk about customer service.

Your results put numbers to my more subjective impressions of their papers with my dye printer. Here's what I found:

  • Hard surface glossy coated (baryta type) rag papers are generally flat and disappointing. Platine was better than most and quite good with B&W. Better for use with pigment inks.
  • Matte surface rag papers (fine art papers) can be very nice with dye inks. Many of the rag papers were really nice. My favorite is the 310 gsm version of Rag Photographique. It is beautiful with my printer.
  • RC papers are mostly quite good and the PhotoSatin Premium is likely to become my default paper, especially with Ilford becoming unreliable.
  • I did not see any problem with the super gloss. It printed well and did not have a veiled look (Ilford's super gloss film and Canon's Satin do). I just don't like that strong a gloss.

My printer has two paper feeds - one normal one (papers up to about 300 gsm) and a second one for hand fed thicker papers. None of the Canson papers were damaged by the printer providing they were fed in the correct slot. I did damage a couple of thicker sheets by putting them in the wrong slot. My fault. Not the printer's or the paper's.

Overall, I was very impressed with the Canson papers and my dye printer. I just wish they were more available locally, although I did find some stocked at our local Hobby Lobby with the art supplies. For the most part, it's mail order for Canson here so it was very nice of them to send the samples so I could know what I am ordering. They also have profiles for my printer available for download, something that has not always been true of third party papers and dye printers. I have become a Canson fan.


Hi rgs.

I should try and feed some of their scuffed sheets through one of the other feeds in the Epson 3880.  Might help.  Epson seems more prone to scuffing up than my other two Canon's even with its platen and paper thickness set to wide.  Wish it wouldn't try and eject so quick as I suspect it is roller burns.

I noticed all the Canson matte papers seem to have the same surface texture (aside from weight), just rolled a bit flatter with the exception of the glossy RC, canvas, and satin ones.  Maybe a slight brightness shift too.  Their warm tone is nothing like the warm cream beige of the Museo Silver Rag nor do their textures match that paper either.  I got a really nice B&W tonal range off the Museo Silver Rag too which sort of surprised me in that the black shadows didn't block up as bad as some profiled papers do.  No scuffs either.  That paper's brightness is down around 90 too which is probably less than any of the Canson's in the package.  Actually, all of the Museo papers (Only four.) are either 90 or 91 with the exception of their new canvas which is 107 which is even higher than my PremierArt white canvas at 102.  At first, I really disliked the Museo Silver Rag and bought it based on rave reviews here, but it seems to have grown on me for art work and I ended up buying a roll of it today.  Plus, it lies very flat and no head strikes in the printer - so far!  I guess I should try their sampler pack too at some point.

Between the two Canson Rag Photographiques (210 and 310 weights), it looks like the color densities are a bit darker with the thicker 310 paper.  More ink into the thicker paper base or thicker carrier maybe?

I noticed your Ilford comment too.  I bought a large box of their Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fibre Silk and the top sheet in the box had what looked like plastering mud splattered on it.  I chipped it off with my fingernail, it was maybe 2-3mm tall and strings of it maybe 25mm long, and that cleaning wrecked the underlying surface.  Other sheets beneath it seemed less affected.  Their QC seems to be iffy.  I'm not that impressed enough to buy more of it.

SG
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