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Author Topic: Thinking about investing in DMF  (Read 2852 times)

GeekAndProud

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Thinking about investing in DMF
« on: November 30, 2013, 05:16:03 pm »

So I inherited some money, not a huge amount but enough to keep me afloat for a while. I currently have a D3 and am not looking to replace it or anything, but I want to venture into Digital Medium Format. There are so many options out there, get a Hasselblad H1, buy a back etc, get a PhaseOne/Mamiya body/back etc, buy a H3D/H3DII etc. I already have a camera so getting all the requisite parts for a medium format camera is not something I have to do within the next week. It would be nice but I have the time to do it slowly.

Ideally I'd like a back with a sensor larger than my D3 but again this is not a requirement as I can always buy a different back at some point in the future.

Edit: This is an example of something I have been looking at, sure it doesn't have the modularity of a H series but its alot more affordable than a H series camera.

Anyone got any suggestions?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 05:25:23 pm by GeekAndProud »
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HarperPhotos

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 05:19:54 pm »

Hello,

My advise is simple don’t waste your money on DMF.
The only time I would use a DMF camera would be as a door stop or paper weight.
Wait for next year and see what Nikon will have to offer with The D4x.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 05:22:13 pm by HarperPhotos »
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GeekAndProud

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2013, 05:21:54 pm »

My D3 does me fine, if I wanted a latest generation 35mm I would have bought one, I have no intention of "upgrading" my D3 for many many years
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HarperPhotos

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2013, 05:25:12 pm »

Then why waste your money on DMF you are not going to gain anything.

Your Nikon D3 is old technology. You should be looking at upgrading your Nikon not DMF.

IMO

Simon
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GeekAndProud

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 05:27:16 pm »

Do I need to emphasise the point where I said upgrading(READ: ***REPLACING***) my D3 for years?
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Justinr

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2013, 07:17:56 pm »

So I inherited some money, not a huge amount but enough to keep me afloat for a while. I currently have a D3 and am not looking to replace it or anything, but I want to venture into Digital Medium Format. There are so many options out there, get a Hasselblad H1, buy a back etc, get a PhaseOne/Mamiya body/back etc, buy a H3D/H3DII etc. I already have a camera so getting all the requisite parts for a medium format camera is not something I have to do within the next week. It would be nice but I have the time to do it slowly.

Ideally I'd like a back with a sensor larger than my D3 but again this is not a requirement as I can always buy a different back at some point in the future.

Edit: This is an example of something I have been looking at, sure it doesn't have the modularity of a H series but its alot more affordable than a H series camera.

Anyone got any suggestions?

Go for it! I have the Mamiya with ZD back and yes it's steam powered and only fit for throwing at yowling cats etc etc but on the other hand it is a lovely camera when it works and they are silly money for what they are. Although I'm still new to my D3 I just don't believe that I will get that MF effect from it.

These were all taken on the Mamiya with either the 80mm or 45mm shift, the light was dull and the day hazy -

http://www.inkplusimages.com/natplgh13/index.html
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Ken R

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2013, 08:23:21 pm »

Cameras are tools to do a job (paid or not) so what do you want to do? It's best to know first the purpose and then build or choose the appropriate system.

For me it was easy, I wanted to make very large prints of landscapes (dawn til dusk, no night photography) so I chose a Technical Camera and a IQ160 back.

If I wanted a studio camera for product, people and some macro I probably would have chosen a DF+ and an IQ180. Also great for working on location with strobes.

Sure, those setups can do a lot more than that but that is their forte.

If you do not know what you want then stay with your dslr or get a D800E if you want more resolution until you know what you want.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2013, 08:30:41 pm »

I agree with Ken, we need to know more about you to provide any meaningful advice.

It's like saying "I own a bike and want to buy a car, any advice?" We could give a lot of advice but we don't know if a truck, a sports car, or a SUV is right for you without knowing more about what you intend to do with it.

What kind of photography do you do?
Why do you do it? How do you do it? Where do you do it?
What do you love about your d3? What do you not love?

These are generic/broad questions but hopefully they highlight how varied needs/wants can be for people asking the questions you've asked.

So please, so share.

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 08:38:24 pm »

So I inherited some money, not a huge amount but enough to keep me afloat for a while. I currently have a D3 and am not looking to replace it or anything, but I want to venture into Digital Medium Format. There are so many options out there, get a Hasselblad H1, buy a back etc, get a PhaseOne/Mamiya body/back etc, buy a H3D/H3DII etc. I already have a camera so getting all the requisite parts for a medium format camera is not something I have to do within the next week. It would be nice but I have the time to do it slowly.

Ideally I'd like a back with a sensor larger than my D3 but again this is not a requirement as I can always buy a different back at some point in the future.

Edit: This is an example of something I have been looking at, sure it doesn't have the modularity of a H series but its alot more affordable than a H series camera.

Anyone got any suggestions?


It will indeed be helpful to know what you want DMF to do that your D3 is not doing.

I will say that you would not want to consider the eBay link you provided. The Mamiya 645 AF is not a good match for any digital back, the 645 AFD would be the absolute minimal starting point, and a questionable one, considering AFD-II, AFD-III, or even DF bodies are available for not much more. The 80mm, on the other hand, isn't quite the lens the 80mm D or 80mm LS versions are, but it is a good lens, nonetheless.

For someone on a budget, the biggest advantage for a Mamiya 645 system - if you're considering a 645 body and more than 1-2 lenses - is that you can flesh out a lens lineup more affordably than you can with the Hasselblad H system. If you're more of a 1-2 lens person, then that advantage goes away.


Steve Hendrix
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synn

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2013, 12:46:53 am »

Hello,

My advise is simple don’t waste your money on DMF.
The only time I would use a DMF camera would be as a door stop or paper weight.
Wait for next year and see what Nikon will have to offer with The D4x.

Cheers

Simon

This sort of generalization really makes me scratch my head.

To the OP. I have been doing my research for months now and pretty close to moving into DMF. I might be able to suggest something. What do you shoot and what is your budget like?
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Justinr

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2013, 06:20:18 am »


It will indeed be helpful to know what you want DMF to do that your D3 is not doing.

I will say that you would not want to consider the eBay link you provided. The Mamiya 645 AF is not a good match for any digital back, the 645 AFD would be the absolute minimal starting point, and a questionable one, considering AFD-II, AFD-III, or even DF bodies are available for not much more. The 80mm, on the other hand, isn't quite the lens the 80mm D or 80mm LS versions are, but it is a good lens, nonetheless.

For someone on a budget, the biggest advantage for a Mamiya 645 system - if you're considering a 645 body and more than 1-2 lenses - is that you can flesh out a lens lineup more affordably than you can with the Hasselblad H system. If you're more of a 1-2 lens person, then that advantage goes away.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

You are certainly correct in saying that the AFD's are not fetching much money (this ebay item seems somewhat overpriced as you say) and I must admit I hadn't clocked the fact that this was a film based unit rather than digital (it was late over here) but for an introduction to dMF then surely a sound Mamiya set up will take some beating value wise. They are also fairly robust, a feature which I am told does not appear at the top of HB's long list of advantages, which is reason No 2 for my having avoided them.


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Joe Towner

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2013, 05:17:59 pm »

To the Mods: Please, can we have a straight forwards 'help me decide on MF' FAQ pin'ed to the forum?  There are a lot of them, and they all require the same info (see below).

To the OP: Welcome,
1) What do you shoot?
2) What do you currently shoot with? (D3, but what lenses?)
3) How do you shoot it? (tripod, hand held, natural light, strobes, constant light, street, middle of the night, ...)
4) Are you shooting for yourself or as a paying gig?
5) What do you feel is limiting about your current setup?
6) What are you doing with the images after you hit the shutter?
7) What budget are you trying to stay within?
8) Where in the world are you?

I would actually start by saying you need to find a local dealer and literally shoot something with a MF camera, take those files and do something with them.  For that matter, you may want to start with a CCD based image and see if you even like the output color.  The auction was for a film based unit, but are you sure that you want that capability & limitation (bodies that can work with analog film tend to have less integration between the body and the back). 

The MF space is wide open, and the used market has so many options, but it comes down to what you want most out of a camera.  For example, if you're looking for all weather shooting, I'd say look at the Pentax 645D due to it having better seals, while I'd say a Phase One setup is going to make a landscape photographer happier as it can be used on technical cameras and bodies without tethering. 

This is where in the world you are matters, as dealership and rental options can help, as can meeting another photographer in your local area who has something you are considering.

Personally I'm a H4D user.  I love it, it does what I need, but I'm also Phase One Certified.  The one thing I will say is that MF/DMF will cost you more than you expect, so please be really clear as to what you are looking to accomplish.
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Justinr

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2013, 06:18:30 pm »

To the Mods: Please, can we have a straight forwards 'help me decide on MF' FAQ pin'ed to the forum?  There are a lot of them, and they all require the same info (see below).

To the OP: Welcome,
1) What do you shoot?
2) What do you currently shoot with? (D3, but what lenses?)
3) How do you shoot it? (tripod, hand held, natural light, strobes, constant light, street, middle of the night, ...)
4) Are you shooting for yourself or as a paying gig?
5) What do you feel is limiting about your current setup?
6) What are you doing with the images after you hit the shutter?
7) What budget are you trying to stay within?
8) Where in the world are you?

I would actually start by saying you need to find a local dealer and literally shoot something with a MF camera, take those files and do something with them.  For that matter, you may want to start with a CCD based image and see if you even like the output color.  The auction was for a film based unit, but are you sure that you want that capability & limitation (bodies that can work with analog film tend to have less integration between the body and the back). 

The MF space is wide open, and the used market has so many options, but it comes down to what you want most out of a camera.  For example, if you're looking for all weather shooting, I'd say look at the Pentax 645D due to it having better seals, while I'd say a Phase One setup is going to make a landscape photographer happier as it can be used on technical cameras and bodies without tethering. 

This is where in the world you are matters, as dealership and rental options can help, as can meeting another photographer in your local area who has something you are considering.

Personally I'm a H4D user.  I love it, it does what I need, but I'm also Phase One Certified.  The one thing I will say is that MF/DMF will cost you more than you expect, so please be really clear as to what you are looking to accomplish.

But then why does anyone need a plan to move into MF? I think 'having a few quid to spare and I'm wanting to expand my photographic experience and knowledge' is quite reason enough. If G&P can find himself a decent Mamiya AFD  and back then he should just go have some fun with it.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2013, 10:41:10 pm »

But then why does anyone need a plan to move into MF? I think 'having a few quid to spare and I'm wanting to expand my photographic experience and knowledge' is quite reason enough. If G&P can find himself a decent Mamiya AFD  and back then he should just go have some fun with it.

If MF was most typically a single-purchase-use-forever scenario then I think that advice would be well placed.

But in my experience Medium Format purchases almost always represent a journey, not a single destination.

So when it comes time to upgrade/update/change/add/upsize/downsize there are additional considerations that he can make now which his future self will appreciate.

As just one example, as pointed out earlier a Mamiya AF body makes a very poor long term investment if digital backs (present and future) are part of the consideration.

We've seen on this forum and on GetDPI, many people buying a system because they thought it was a "steal" (e.g. and underbid ebay auction) only to end up with lots of headaches because the system wasn't the right choice for them.

Even on the low end I encourage wide-net research as to what might be best for you now, and in the future, including if at all possible actual hands on shooting. We've been selling a lot of low end Phase and Leaf systems this year (e.g. we have a P20 DF+ kit with 80LS lens listed at the moment), and one of the selling points is that the upgrade path to future backs/lenses is very clear. Phase/Leaf aren't the only options on the low end (those are just the ones we sell) so the point is more so to make sure to consider the future in your present purchase - unless you are confident this will be your only forray into MFD.

GeekAndProud

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2013, 12:33:19 pm »

Thanks for all the help guys, I made a decision and bought a 70-200 for my D3, I might snap up an old H2 body if I can get one cheap but not invest much more in MF until I can recover from spending £1400 on 2 35mm lenses. I will definitely look at testing out a system if I can find somewhere that has used set-ups in the UK

That's one of the things that attracts me to MF is the fact I can buy myself a "cheap" H1/H2 body now and maybe get a back in 6 months.

Edit: what's a good price for a used H2 body + prism?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 12:37:07 pm by GeekAndProud »
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Ken R

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2013, 02:32:53 pm »

Thanks for all the help guys, I made a decision and bought a 70-200 for my D3, I might snap up an old H2 body if I can get one cheap but not invest much more in MF until I can recover from spending £1400 on 2 35mm lenses. I will definitely look at testing out a system if I can find somewhere that has used set-ups in the UK

That's one of the things that attracts me to MF is the fact I can buy myself a "cheap" H1/H2 body now and maybe get a back in 6 months.

Edit: what's a good price for a used H2 body + prism?

Honestly if you do not have dinero $$$ then forget about the Hasselblad H series. Even used the lenses are expensive. A H1 or H2 with film back kit can be had for about $2500 with 80mm lens which is not bad but adding additional lenses will cost you ($1500-$3500 per lens used). Some dealers out there like Digital Transitions have some great deals on used back and body packages from phase one. Check them out HERE .  Also, Mamiya 645 lenses can be had for cheap used.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 02:34:42 pm by Ken R »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2013, 02:51:11 pm »

Thanks for all the help guys, I made a decision and bought a 70-200 for my D3, I might snap up an old H2 body if I can get one cheap but not invest much more in MF until I can recover from spending £1400 on 2 35mm lenses. I will definitely look at testing out a system if I can find somewhere that has used set-ups in the UK

That's one of the things that attracts me to MF is the fact I can buy myself a "cheap" H1/H2 body now and maybe get a back in 6 months.

Edit: what's a good price for a used H2 body + prism?

Hey Geek,

Have fun with the 70-200 - if you haven't had one, it is the workhorse zoom for all brands.

Honestly, don't spend the money on MF/DMF in chunks.  Save until you can do a complete kit, as you will be able to test the equipment together, and experience the workflow.  Getting a body that can do film to turn around and get a digital back isn't smart use of money.  If digital is what you want, stick to it, and keep saving.  Worst case you can use said savings to repair/replace your D3 if something were to happen.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 03:13:38 am »

Why not try MF with film first?  If you are looking to add a MF camera to your kit, certainly an easy way is to start with film and see how you like shooting the camera and then if you like it, look for a digital back to fit it.   Film will give you a first hand sense of what the images will look like.  But if you want something with a different look, go for a camera that has a bigger format, 6x6 or 6x7.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Thinking about investing in DMF
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 04:58:59 am »

Start with a Mamiya Press.
It is so heavy, every MF Camera after that will be a lightweight to you. ;)
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