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Author Topic: Technical camera or Phase one body  (Read 9650 times)

alifatemi

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Technical camera or Phase one body
« on: November 30, 2013, 01:46:52 pm »

Dose all the hassle of technical cameras worth the result in real world? I very much like to see, if anybody has done it, the head to head comparison between phase one DB installed in its own Mamya body and lenses, compare to very same back installed on Alpa and its lenses. Anybody has done it please publish the result. I simply like to know if having DB on Alpa really worth all the time and effort that one should pay to take a picture, dealing with focus difficulties, color cast, framing e.c. and if the result is really better IN PRINT than PhaseOne own body and lenses which are far more convenient to work with?  As far as I know, Lula has never done these kind of comparison which can be very interesting to many MF-user people. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 02:03:25 pm by alifatemi »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 09:35:35 pm »

Differences from my point of view:

Image quality: (assuming no movement)
23-35mm: Very large difference
45-55mm: Medium difference
80-120mm: Small difference
150-240mm: May actually favor DF/DF+

Functionality:
Tech camera has movements**
Tech camera can do nodal stitching or pan-stitching
DF/DF+ can only do nodal stitching
DF/DF+ has autofocus & autoexposure


Speed of Operation:
Isolation focus: DF/DF+ much faster
Hyperfocal: Tech Camera much faster
Rough composition*: equal
Exact composition: DF/DF+ much faster
Shots where focus is changing every shot: DF/DF+ much faster


Speed of Learning:
DF/DF+: almost no learning required if you have any dSLR experience
Tech camera: large learning curve, even if you have previous view camera experience

You can see a comparison we did between two 28mm SLR medium format lenses versus the Rodenstock 32HR. Any good dealer will let you, nay, encourage you to do a comparison of your own, with your own workflows, subject matter, and working conditions taken into account. But based on working with many photographers doing similar comparisons, if you care about edge/corner quality and shoot wide lenses you will be shocked at how good tech camera lenses are.

Also, you should be aware that the tech camera world has many great options, not just Alpa. They make fine cameras, but depending on your budget, priorities, likes/dislikes, and needs you may also also connect more with Arca and Cambo. I'm a very biased source of info here as both companies I've worked for previously sold Alpa, but elected to drop that line. But in the very least I think it's very fair advice to include the broader world of tech cameras in your search (which also includes brands like Silvestri, Sinar, and Linhof and more) before narrowing in on which one best suits you.

**for amount of movement available on each body and lens I selfishly suggest:
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-overview
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 10:04:14 pm by Doug Peterson »
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gerald.d

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2013, 10:51:27 pm »

What were the reasons for both the companies that you previously worked for electing to drop Alpa, Doug?

Poor quality? Poor support? Poor sales? Unsatisfactory dealer margin? Customers returns?


Kind regards,


Gerald.
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gerald.d

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2013, 11:08:15 pm »

Dose all the hassle of technical cameras worth the result in real world? I very much like to see, if anybody has done it, the head to head comparison between phase one DB installed in its own Mamya body and lenses, compare to very same back installed on Alpa and its lenses. Anybody has done it please publish the result. I simply like to know if having DB on Alpa really worth all the time and effort that one should pay to take a picture, dealing with focus difficulties, color cast, framing e.c. and if the result is really better IN PRINT than PhaseOne own body and lenses which are far more convenient to work with?  As far as I know, Lula has never done these kind of comparison which can be very interesting to many MF-user people. Thanks.

Bias out of the way, you do raise a very intriguing point.

Comparisons such as these are now even more interesting with the Alpa FPS available.

I'm crazy busy right now, but will try to find some time later in the month to test the following:

Mamiya 50mm shift on Phase One AF
Mamiya 50mm shift on Alpa FPS
Rodenstock 50mm HR on Alpa FPS (using FPS shutter)
Rodenstock 50mm HR on Alpa FPS (using Rodenstock shutter)

You comment "...PhaseOne own body and lenses which are far more convenient to work with". This is of course highly dependent on what you are shooting, and I would strongly disagree that the Phase One body is more convenient than a tech camera set-up for landscape or architecture.

My AF has been sat on the shelf collecting dust for over a year now - I've not touched it since getting an Alpa system, but this is of course very much driven by what I shoot.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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alifatemi

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 11:37:27 pm »

I am a landscape and architectural photographer mainly and of course, street photographer just for fun sometimes but the latter is not important.
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alifatemi

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2013, 11:39:19 pm »

Thanks DOUG, but I get error downloading your samples.
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gerald.d

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2013, 01:58:18 am »

I am a landscape and architectural photographer mainly and of course, street photographer just for fun sometimes but the latter is not important.

Frankly, for landscape and architectural photography, IMO a tech cam set-up (regardless of brand) is an absolute no-brainer over the Phase One camera.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
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studio347

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 02:13:31 am »

For a hardcore still life_a bigger camera, for street, portrait, fashion_ I think, a smaller camera.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2013, 10:55:43 am »

Thanks DOUG, but I get error downloading your samples.

I got your email re: the same. I will correct on Monday when I'm back in the office.

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2013, 11:34:02 am »

You should also check this thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=84654.0;topicseen

I just can repeat what others have said:
Test drive, test drive, test drive under real shooting conditions, not brick walls.

Cheers
~Chris

Paul2660

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2013, 12:55:35 pm »

Believe me, if I could  get there with a Phase One DF+ and a series of Mamiya/Phase One lenses, I would.  Considerations.

1.  Image quality, I don't feel that any Phase One, Mamiya lens solution will give you the same amount of 100% detail with wides, 23mm, 28mm, 35mm and 40mm.  With the Phase One lenses I used, I was cropping the files back to get rid of soft edges and smearing.  A 40mp image became more like 33 and a 60mp image was more like 50.  I tend to compose where those original edges are part of the shot, and I don't what to crop them out.  As you get into the 60MP to 80MP backs, the Mamiya/Phase lenses will perform even worse.

2.  Ability to shift for short pans, a huge deal for me as I love the pano look.  You will not get a true pano shifting a tech camera even 20mm but you can get what I call short pans, and these can be cropped down to a a true 3:1 ratio.  By shifting the back, you can forget about being level, and just line up the shot and shoot.  You can still work nodal, but most times in my work Nodal is not possible due to necessity to being level, especially true with wides.  The only shift solution I know of for Phase is the old manual focus 50mm.  It allowed 15 or 18mm of shift, but the 2 I had were not much good past 8mm and you still really need an LCC with this lens as the light fall off is considerable.

3.  Tilt, I should have listed this first, but tilt for me is in almost every setup.  Medium format seems to have a shallower DOF by nature and thus doesn't always lend itself to a wide open expansive shot, this becomes much more noticeable once you get past 40mm.  The 55mm Mamiya AF lens is an excellent lens, but has a extremely shallow DOF even at F11.  With backs that prefer to be at iso 35 or 50, F11 to F16 many times is way too underexposed, add wind and you are just out of luck many times.  By tilting, you can adjust the DOF to your advantage, (very dependent on scene), so that I can get a hyperfocal of around 8 feet to infinity with the 28mm Rodenstock @ F8 and around 12-15 feet to infinity with the 60mm Schneider.  You can't do this without focus stacking with a Phase One and traditional glass.   By taking the time to learn your hyperfocal range for each lens, you can save a ton of time, I rarely use a range finder unless the 60mm or larger lenses are in use. 

4.  Tech camera workflow, some seem to love it, I don't but it is what it is.  With no Live view ( I understand its there is Live View on the IQ backs it's just not very workable for me) focus becomes a paramount issue.  It kept me away from tech cameras until late 2011.  After working with Capture Integration, Rod Klukas and a few photographers working with tech gear, I realized that the real hang up was not on getting focus with the wides, just understanding where and what your hyperfocal was.  I am not working macro, or selective focus with these lenses just looking for the best overall image focus.  If you are looking at macro or very selective focus solutions, then I would lean towards a Phase Back, with AF and a visible viewfinder showing the actual image you are working with.    Working up the files in post, is a bit more time consuming due to the incorporation of the LCC, but that becomes easier as you work through it.   But you have to shoot an LCC other wise color-cast alone can ruin a shot, and with the Schneider, vignetting and color cast will not be recoverable.

5.  The ability to use an aperture of F 4.5 through F8.  As the Phase backs, will always perform best at their lowest iso, 35 or 50, many times you just can't get to F11 at iso 50 depending on the lighting and if you are needed filters (I almost always do).  Wind alone can stop a shoot at iso 50 with a Mamiya 35mm F 3.5 which really only becomes good at around F11 (based on 3 years of shooting 3 different lenses).  Here you are needed a shutter speed of 1/60, to 1/250th to help keep the motion blur in check. Knowing your tech lens at F 5.6 will still be extremely sharp with some DOF fall off is nice to know.  You can still get to the shutter speed of 1/60 to 1/125 with the aperture range of F 5.6 to F 8. Depending on the shot setup, tilt can recover some of the lost DOF.

6.  Setup time, for me it's just longer, considerably longer.  With the Phase One DF/DF+, you work just like with a DSLR, mount, aim, set shoot.  With the tech camera, setup is a bit more cumbersome at least for me.  I carry the acra with the Phase One back attached, but no lens.  You still have to attach the lens, mount camera to tripod, attach the cables, attache the viewfinder( I have started leaving it on now) attach the viewfinder mask, check focus settings, remember to wind the shutter then shoot.  May not seem like much but as the day wears on it gets there.  Did I mention hand holding, not really feasible with a tech camera, easy to do with the Phase One DF and lenses.  Weight is about the same.  I used to carrry the DF, 35mm, 55mm, 28mm, 75-150 (which is a beast), now I tend to carry the Arca 28mm, 40mm, and 60mm with a 105 at times (105mm is very light).  In a situation where I am hiking many miles, this quickly drops to the 40mm, and 60mm as both of these lenses can shift to 15mm easily (25mm on the 60mm). 

To echo Doug's comments, if you are after action or telephoto past around 120mm, then the Phase One DF and available lenses may be a solution.  Mamiya's 150mm F2.8, 210mm, and 75-150 are all excellent lenses, their latest 240 LS amazing.  I just don't shoot MF for that, as I will drop back to Nikon and Canon or even Fuji.  For shooting landscapes with wides it's just the opposite and the results will show immediately.  Posting images to show results is hard on the web, even crops, you need to have the equipment in front of you and viewing the results first hand. 

Paul Caldwell

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Jeffery Salter

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 02:34:07 pm »

Thanks Paul for your very informative post.  Always a pleasure to read.  I shoot with a DF+ and tend to cut it close with the focus by using the 2.8 to f 5.6. (Definitely no hyper focal anything!)  I only photograph people typically off center.  Sometimes moving. Sometimes still. 

Anyway I only mention this because I will branching out into architectural and landscape photography as well.

Your tips on using a tech pan are  a definite resource to someone with tech cam interests.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 02:38:27 pm by Jeffery Salter »
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alifatemi

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 02:39:40 am »

thanks Paul, but what I am puzzled in is using focus confirmation with iQ series; some says it is not accurate and have to use laser rang finder but some like Mark Dubovoy says in Lula, he is very pleased with it using the iQ180 back with Alpa:

"Now for the good:  I was surprised that even without Live View, I never needed a groundglass.  This is because the focus confirmation feature (analogous to focus confirmation in CaptureOne) is enabled, and works so well that I had complete confidence in what I was doing.  The image files clearly show that focus is tack sharp precisely where I expected it."

what do you think?
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Graham Welland

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 04:06:12 am »

The focus mask with the IQ backs can be very effective at showing where you've got good contrast in the image. However, it is very dependent upon the light levels and contrast in the scene (micro contrast/edges etc). You can adjust the sensitivity to make the mask as loose or tight as you need it.

I use the mask feature extensively when shooting image focus stacks. It's great to be able to easily see which range is in focus in each frame as you focus in or out of the scene.
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julienlanoo

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 08:49:43 am »

The point of technical cams is that you can get it perfect, but you don t have to, you are more likely to get the "human" in your work as you re not protected by firmware, or perfectly calibrated stuff..
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Paul2660

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 09:15:45 am »

As Graham pointed out, with Focus Mask (on the IQ back it would be called focus Mask if tethered and using Capture One, Focus confirmation), low light or scenes without contrast may give results that are that that helpful.  The tool is contrast based.  I have found that if I underexpose intentionally for a test shot, then Focus mask is a bit more helpful. 

However in my daily use, I find that I don't use Focus Mask as much as I still rely on the 100% zoom feature of the IQ LCD.  This to me is the best tool for focus confirmation.  The view at 100% is clear, sharp and there is no doubt.  This is much more detail than provided with a D800, or Canon 5D MKIII LCD, I have used them all.  The view of the LCD on an IQ back is like looking at a image on a Computer screen at 100% (actual Pixel) view.  There is no doubt about areas out or in foucs. 

Having focus mask is another great tool in the IQ tool kit however.   

This also brings back the use of tilt, as I pretty much know with my 28mm Rodenstock, with the Acra Helical set to 0.2 what will be in focus (anything from about 11 feet to infinity), if I add about 1/2 a degree of tilt I can bring this to about 7 feet to infinity.  For my landscape work, the time it took me to figure out the hyperfocal range of each lens I own was well worth it. 

My opinion of Live view and it's practical usage in the field is a bit different than Marc's.  I don't find it that useable, it's cumbersome with the LCD blooming in and out each time you change the focus.  The addition of a strong ND filter helps but you still have the blooming of the LCD.  This blooming takes several seconds to settle back down and you have to remember that you battery use is getting a bit hit.  It would take me 10x longer to focus a shot with Live View on a IQ back than say a DSLR type setup with CMOS.  I will say that in lower lighting situations, (early morning or late afternoon) it does get easier to use since the light coming into the back is more muted. 

My single biggest concern before purchase of a tech camera was focus.  I quickly realized that FOR ME, a P45+, P65+ back would not work as the LCD on those backs is not able to give you enough feedback on focus.  I liked the feedback I was getting at 100% on the IQ's so I made the decision to move to the IQ series.   Having the feedback of the IQ screen makes determining your hyperfocal range just that much easier as you don't need to go to a computer to view the files or be tethered. 

All it took was one demo of the IQ 160 vs my P45+ to see the major differences in the ability of the LCD.  On the P45+ the LCD was there to mainly let you see what you shot, view a histogram and make changes to the back's via the menu.  With the IQ, the LCD takes on a whole new level and IMO becomes a critical tool for the photographer, no matter if you are shooting a DF+ body or tech camera.   

Paul Caldwell
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Ken R

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 09:39:20 am »

I am a landscape and architectural photographer mainly and of course, street photographer just for fun sometimes but the latter is not important.

Hi, money no object a Tech camera and lenses is the best option for landscape and architecture bar none for several reasons:

1- Quality of wide angles is second to none.
2- Tilt offers focus and depth of field control, critical with large sensor digital backs.
3- Extensive L/R Shift and Rise and Fall offers lots of in camera options for perspective and composition control and also stitching.

Rodenstock HR-W lenses are the best for shifting with any 60/80mp back. I have the 40mm and 70mm and they are superb.

It is not all peaches and cream though. The 23mm lens flares easily (nasty flare, search online) so care must be taken to shade it properly but it is incredibly sharp (from the files I have seen). The 32mm is superb but it is a very large and heavy lens and care must be taken when transporting it because it is very front heavy. It is recommended to use center filters on both the 23 and the 32 (and the 28mm).

Alpa does not offer tilt on the 23-28mm lenses (last I checked).

« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:04:59 am by Ken R »
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alifatemi

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 09:45:33 am »

Thanks ken, Alpa got lots of lenses e.g. just 3 RODENSTOCK/ALPA 32mm that I don't know which one to use! and the price are so varied. It sounds I am going Switzerland!
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Ken R

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 09:53:05 am »

Thanks ken, Alpa got lots of lenses e.g. just 3 RODENSTOCK/ALPA 32mm that I don't know which one to use! and the price are so varied. It sounds I am going Switzerland!

It is the same Rodenstock HR-W 32mm lens just with different mounts.

With ALPA you need to carefully plan your system so you get the lenses in the appropriate mounts for that you need to know which bodies and adapters you intend to use now or in the future.

Also ALPA does not offer a compact body that combines rear (back) shift and rise/fall. Cambo and Arca do.The Arca R mount lenses also fit in a wide range of camera configurations and since the focus is in the camera body not built in the lens you can calibrate it precisely whenever you change configurations.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:09:56 am by Ken R »
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alifatemi

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Re: Technical camera or Phase one body
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 01:39:33 am »

I have decided to get both technical and phaseOne body. the think is I can get a body and 80mm kit lens for the price of far less than one of those exotic Schneider or Rodenshtock 80mm+ lenses and use it just for photography above 80mm where I almost need the fast camera setup for hand-hold situations; I taught it is the best way I can use the camera almost just like a dSLR for street photography or similar purposes without almost compromising the quality. It really cost me less than buying an expensive tech camera lenses. And also buy a technical camera for landscape and architectural, in this case I have all goodies of both world!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 02:08:34 pm by alifatemi »
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