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Author Topic: Still pondering the MF conundrum  (Read 5873 times)

KevinA

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Still pondering the MF conundrum
« on: November 30, 2013, 06:32:20 am »

OK I know probably the only way for me to find out for real if a Phase one will give me more than Canon is to shoot with one.
Not that easy being were I am located and early stages of pondering.
So those of you that shoot say 1D X/D800 and Phase One, other than pixel numbers what extra are you really getting side by side.
I like the idea of handing an AD a iPad so they can follow the shoot (I'm in helicopters most of the time) but that would be an unusual occurrence, I usually shoot to a brief.
Bottom line do I get a better image, do I get to see more in shadows and highlights on a winters day?
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ndevlin

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 08:04:15 am »


Kevin,

Depending on what you shoot and how, you will nail fewer shots with MF, but yes, they will have more pixels and more malleability in post.  That's about all one can say at a high level of generality.

Beyond that, the quantum of the difference, and the pain/pleasure of using the gear, is too personal to be meaningfully compared or described by words.

- N.

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2013, 09:05:48 am »

Hi,

The short answer is no.

The somewhat longer answer is that there my be a slight advantage of the P45+ over the D800/D800E but both shadows and highlights will be better on the D800/D800E.

I have a P45+ but don't own a D800E, I have Sony Alpha 99 which uses the same sensor as the one in the D600.

Sharpness is better on the P45+, 39 MP vs. 24MP and I would suggest that the P45+ is sharper than then Nikon D800E, MP notwithstanding if the P45+ is combined with excellent lenses.

I don't have a Canon D1X, but dark noise at base ISO is known to one of it's few weaknesses.

Just to make clear, I enjoy shooting with my P45+ on Hasselblad V and I can make great images, but the same applies to my Sony Alpha kit. Of subject, tripod and photographer the camera matters the least.

Best regards
Erik

OK I know probably the only way for me to find out for real if a Phase one will give me more than Canon is to shoot with one.
Not that easy being were I am located and early stages of pondering.
So those of you that shoot say 1D X/D800 and Phase One, other than pixel numbers what extra are you really getting side by side.
I like the idea of handing an AD a iPad so they can follow the shoot (I'm in helicopters most of the time) but that would be an unusual occurrence, I usually shoot to a brief.
Bottom line do I get a better image, do I get to see more in shadows and highlights on a winters day?
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Pics2

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2013, 09:27:36 am »

I think it's really important to try it on your own before buying. It's too expensive to do it any other way. I use both systems and talked to many people and there is one thing that you will be disappointed about at first - MF is slow. For the kind of work you talked about and after, I guess, years of DSLR experience, it will be a problem for you. Big or minor problem, that depends on you, and that's why you have to try it first. Rarely, I can't see a difference between MF and 35mm files, but in most cases the difference is huge!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 10:49:13 am »

Hi,

I shot these images some weeks ago. The images are processed, pretty much to my liking. They are shown as high quality JPEGs, downscaled to fit 4000x4000. Some are Sony Alpha 99 and some are Hasselblad V + P45+. These images are not comparison images, I was just shooting with both cameras. White balance may differ, and as I said processing is to taste.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/RealWorld/index.html
Questions:

Do you see the MFD look?
Can you say which is which?

Answers: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/RealWorld/Answers.html


Raw files are here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/RealWorld/rawfiles.html

Best regards
Erik

OK I know probably the only way for me to find out for real if a Phase one will give me more than Canon is to shoot with one.
Not that easy being were I am located and early stages of pondering.
So those of you that shoot say 1D X/D800 and Phase One, other than pixel numbers what extra are you really getting side by side.
I like the idea of handing an AD a iPad so they can follow the shoot (I'm in helicopters most of the time) but that would be an unusual occurrence, I usually shoot to a brief.
Bottom line do I get a better image, do I get to see more in shadows and highlights on a winters day?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 11:38:56 am by ErikKaffehr »
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jerome_m

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2013, 11:30:33 am »

If I remember correctly, your asked whether MS is "worth it" a few days ago and mainly shoot aerial photography from helicopters.

Quite frankly, I don't think that MF makes much sense for your line of business. It is considerably more expensive and I do not see how you could recoup the investment. Furthermore, MF cameras are ill suited to be used on a stabilised platform due to their larger mass and lower base iso. MF are used for aerial photography (Hasselblad has a division to that purpose), but mainly for surveys like what you see in google maps and the gain comes from their higher resolution.

Don't misread me: on pure technical quality, MF cameras are better. Put one on a tripod and photography a static subject in good light, and there is nothing better short of 8x10" sheet film. Need to reproduce paintings and they will be demanded by museums, especially in their multishot versions, because nothing is more accurate colour-wise. Want to shoot fashion and need perfect bokeh and they are the deal.

But on an helicopter at night? Not quite so.

I believe you would get much better value from a D800 or, possibly, from the new Sony A7r. Either one can drive an external video screen to follow the shot.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2013, 11:52:01 am »

I enjoy shooting my Mamiya RB67 MF film camera for landscape shots.  Getting a digital something that's lighter might be nice but I don't want to spend so much for MF digital camera.  What solutions would you offer?

langier

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2013, 12:23:28 pm »

A dozen years ago, I bit the bullet and figured I'd have to "like" the narrower focus of my Distagons of the then "MF" backs. Try as I could, it just never worked out and I wasn't about to dump it all for much, much more expensive and ephemeral system. I think only one 6x6 back ever came to fruition and it never got out of beta as I recall and it was only b&w. So I had to adapt. I down-sized and was patient and learned the new tools and tech.

My patience ran out with the MF and for many years now I simply shoot the smaller cameras using the craft I learned and practiced from MF and larger formats successfully.

So, in a similar situation, I would shoot film and then scan it had I not made the migration which I did in the beginning. I transitioned and I moved along. I miss the slow and methodical process, but for me, that was also a source of missed photos and opportunity since I couldn't move quickly with a locked-down, tripod-mounted camera awaiting the perfect cue.

Though it's taken years, lots of $$$ and learning new tricks, I'm more than happy and my craft has never been as good. I occasionally need to dig through the files and scan my legacy images, but that's getting rarer since much of that has been eclipsed with better work and better results.
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Paul2660

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 01:36:12 pm »

Kevin:

You say "give me more",  more DR, More res, than the 1DX? 

I have never shot the 1DX, but have shot every other major Canon DSLR, current own a 6D (used only for night work). 

Either the D800 or Modern Phase (IQ series) will give you more resolution than Canon, and I feel more DR.  If you go to a P45+ then I don't feel the DR is there, but sure the resolution is. 

I say this all the time, but really feel it's a truth, the D800 revolutionized DSLR landscape photography.  The DR of the chip is amazing especially at base iso of 100.  This range will fall off as you start to approach iso's over 1600.   I have only shot one digital camera that has the ability to pull up shadows as much as 3 stops and still have workable detail, detail with color, saturation, and very little noise.  No Canon I ever shot can do this, however the 6D does give a much more useable noise with non of the harsh color banding seen in previous Canon's.  But you still can't pull it up 3 stops and use the file.  At least I don't think so.  With the D800, working a single file (sunset sunrise) still impresses me as to just how much range is in that one shot.  These type of shots were always bracketed for me with Canon, but not anymore.  The D800 will not hold up to your 1DX in the higher ISO ranges, but it was never meant to either.  I shot canon from the 1ds MKI in late 2002 till the release of the D800, I shot it once, never looked back, and still don't regret the move.  (still missing a good TS-E lens in the Nikon lineup). 

Medium Format, I can give you my impressions as I have owned, a P45+, IO160 and IQ260 now.  The P45+ required very careful exposure, and if you even tempted the highlights, they were blown, totally not recoverable.  Eric has commented on the strange look at times from the details in the shadows (with Capture One).  I pretty much always bracketed that camera and it as also a iso 50 to 200 camera as anything past 400 or 800 was tempting too much noise.  I will say the last firmware update did help on iso 400, but after going and looking at a iso 400 from a D800 you realize how much more could have been captured. 

I feel that the IQ160 is a huge improvement over the Kodak based chipped Phase series backs, here you can easily pull up shadows as much as +2.5 stops at base iso 50.  The IQ is much more forgiving with highlights IMO just a much more overall useable back.   If you follow the DxO specs, this is very clear with how they rated the P45+ over the P65+.  (IQ160 and P65+ are the same chip with pretty much same output).  As a tech camera shooter, my Phase One work is slow and tedious, many times, the conditions will really not allow this setup, but when they do I still lead with the Phase One.   I took the risk and bet on the future with my recent upgrade to the 260 over 160, I say bet as I just don't think there will be anymore image quality enhancements to the P65+/160 chip family, however I am still hoping that Phase continues to improve the image capabilities of the IQ260, and only time will tell on that.    One other thing to consider, is all the P65+ and all IQ backs have sensor plus, which allows much better work in the higher iso range, at the sacrifice of resolution, 60MP dropping to 15MP, but it's still a very good 15MP and useable up to around 1600 iso.  It's just a nice feature that has saved me a few times.

I know this will sound like a broken record, but if you are thinking about any type of a Phase back, (Leaf too), try to locate a dealer and work with them.  Used or new, you still really need a dealer to help with the communications back to Phase if problems arise.   There are a few pitfalls to be aware of on a used P45+ and I would be careful if you source one without a dealer. 

You mentioned helicopter shooting, not sure if a Phase Back would be the best solution, no VR on any lenses, DF+ or DF body, not that forgiving and a bit cumbersome, plus max telephoto is a LS240 (with AF)  Not sure if you would have enough iso range to work with a Digital back.  But I have never tried it. 

Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2013, 03:39:51 pm »

Hi,

We have some poster here on LuLa who shoots from Helicopter using an IQ on Alpa with HR lenses and very happy about it. It is probably workable.

If a solution like that is appropriate for you depends on your way of working and your needs.

A DSLR will probably give you decent to very good results. If you are asking for more you need to invest more money and flight time to find out.

Best regards
Erik

Kevin:

You say "give me more",  more DR, More res, than the 1DX? 

I have never shot the 1DX, but have shot every other major Canon DSLR, current own a 6D (used only for night work). 

Either the D800 or Modern Phase (IQ series) will give you more resolution than Canon, and I feel more DR.  If you go to a P45+ then I don't feel the DR is there, but sure the resolution is. 

I say this all the time, but really feel it's a truth, the D800 revolutionized DSLR landscape photography.  The DR of the chip is amazing especially at base iso of 100.  This range will fall off as you start to approach iso's over 1600.   I have only shot one digital camera that has the ability to pull up shadows as much as 3 stops and still have workable detail, detail with color, saturation, and very little noise.  No Canon I ever shot can do this, however the 6D does give a much more useable noise with non of the harsh color banding seen in previous Canon's.  But you still can't pull it up 3 stops and use the file.  At least I don't think so.  With the D800, working a single file (sunset sunrise) still impresses me as to just how much range is in that one shot.  These type of shots were always bracketed for me with Canon, but not anymore.  The D800 will not hold up to your 1DX in the higher ISO ranges, but it was never meant to either.  I shot canon from the 1ds MKI in late 2002 till the release of the D800, I shot it once, never looked back, and still don't regret the move.  (still missing a good TS-E lens in the Nikon lineup). 

Medium Format, I can give you my impressions as I have owned, a P45+, IO160 and IQ260 now.  The P45+ required very careful exposure, and if you even tempted the highlights, they were blown, totally not recoverable.  Eric has commented on the strange look at times from the details in the shadows (with Capture One).  I pretty much always bracketed that camera and it as also a iso 50 to 200 camera as anything past 400 or 800 was tempting too much noise.  I will say the last firmware update did help on iso 400, but after going and looking at a iso 400 from a D800 you realize how much more could have been captured. 

I feel that the IQ160 is a huge improvement over the Kodak based chipped Phase series backs, here you can easily pull up shadows as much as +2.5 stops at base iso 50.  The IQ is much more forgiving with highlights IMO just a much more overall useable back.   If you follow the DxO specs, this is very clear with how they rated the P45+ over the P65+.  (IQ160 and P65+ are the same chip with pretty much same output).  As a tech camera shooter, my Phase One work is slow and tedious, many times, the conditions will really not allow this setup, but when they do I still lead with the Phase One.   I took the risk and bet on the future with my recent upgrade to the 260 over 160, I say bet as I just don't think there will be anymore image quality enhancements to the P65+/160 chip family, however I am still hoping that Phase continues to improve the image capabilities of the IQ260, and only time will tell on that.    One other thing to consider, is all the P65+ and all IQ backs have sensor plus, which allows much better work in the higher iso range, at the sacrifice of resolution, 60MP dropping to 15MP, but it's still a very good 15MP and useable up to around 1600 iso.  It's just a nice feature that has saved me a few times.

I know this will sound like a broken record, but if you are thinking about any type of a Phase back, (Leaf too), try to locate a dealer and work with them.  Used or new, you still really need a dealer to help with the communications back to Phase if problems arise.   There are a few pitfalls to be aware of on a used P45+ and I would be careful if you source one without a dealer. 

You mentioned helicopter shooting, not sure if a Phase Back would be the best solution, no VR on any lenses, DF+ or DF body, not that forgiving and a bit cumbersome, plus max telephoto is a LS240 (with AF)  Not sure if you would have enough iso range to work with a Digital back.  But I have never tried it. 

Paul Caldwell
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Ken R

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 08:13:15 pm »

OK I know probably the only way for me to find out for real if a Phase one will give me more than Canon is to shoot with one.
Not that easy being were I am located and early stages of pondering.
So those of you that shoot say 1D X/D800 and Phase One, other than pixel numbers what extra are you really getting side by side.
I like the idea of handing an AD a iPad so they can follow the shoot (I'm in helicopters most of the time) but that would be an unusual occurrence, I usually shoot to a brief.
Bottom line do I get a better image, do I get to see more in shadows and highlights on a winters day?

I have been hired to photograph from a heli 5-6 times and money no object I would probably choose a PhaseOne DF+ and an IQ280 back + one of THESE Although I would still add a D800E or 1DX for low light stuff.

Regarding the iPad I do that cheaply with a WiFi SD card on my Canon 5D3. I save the RAWs to the CF card and Small JPGs to the sd card which sends the jpgs to the iPad. It does not have a huge range but on a heli with the AD right next to me it would be no problem.

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2013, 08:37:12 pm »

For what it's worth we have many aerial shooters.

Few (if any) of them go into the air with ONLY a medium format system. More usually they have a dSLR with an IS long/zoom lens with a wide-to-normal medium format option.

For twilight and night aerial work a high-ISO dSLR is clearly the best option. For low ISO work there is a strong argument for considering the addition a MFD system.

gerald.d

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2013, 02:49:11 am »

I think you're really pushing the limits of MFDB shooting hand-held from a helicopter, and unless you really, really, want/need the resolution, you'd be much better off with 35mm.

On tech cams (I've not used a DF+):

One of the main considerations is that ideally you want to be seeing what you're shooting from a chopper. Framing a tech cam can be challenging from a moving platform. Not saying it's impossible, but your hit-rate probably won't be as high as you'd like.

Gyros are all well and good, but they can actually be a hindrance at times because you might find yourself fighting against them in some situations. Obviously this (in fact everything) is very much dependent on exactly what the job entails, and what your pilot is willing/able to do (generally speaking, pilots don't like hovering). If you've just got to shoot one thing up there, then a gyro could be very useful, but if you want to capture a lot of shots and are constantly changing your posture and the direction you're shooting, you're going to be fighting against the gyro all the time.

My personal preference would always be to go for a faster shutter speed rather than rely on a gyro. From experience from a moving platform, if you want to get the benefit of the full resolution of a MFDB back such as the IQ180, then you want 1/1000th of a second or faster. The only way to get this with tech-cam lenses is with the ALPA FPS.

You're then in a battle with light. 1/1000th of a second at base ISO on an IQ180, you need an f/2.8 lens even in bright sunlight. Good luck with that. So, you up the ISO to 100, and settle on f/5.6. This is doable. But again to stress - you're really up against the boundaries of where MFDB delivers its advantages against 35mm DSLR here.

In anything less than really good light, I'd say forget it.

But, if the light's good and you really, really want the resolution and the MFDB file to work with, then what the heck. Go for it :)

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KevinA

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2013, 12:31:56 pm »

Well as I thought I've got to try it myself and see whats what. For years I shot MF film from aircraft. 160iso was the norm. My plan was the 1Dx for low light.
One problem I have is the contrast between the tops of buildings in sunlight and the street level in deep shadow. Some buildings are very reflective stone.
Despite picking the most suitable times of the day, this time of year in particular is very tricky.
I've shot HDR with the X, one reason for getting it was the fps for HDR and stitching. HDR is not my favourite look and not always achievable.
I also shoot stock for my site, the ability to heavily crop would be useful, but mfdb cost extra usable, is a tough one to answer.
Also the marketing to clients of mfdb is an unknown, I'm not sure they care what it is, then again has anyone ever educated them to the benefits?
I'm not against working slower and shooting less. It's also worth remembering most of what I shoot is at infinity, no dof to consider and no differential focus option either.
Got to try it.
Thanks for all your well considered replies, there is a huge lack of independent reviews comparisons on the web, lots of "I can't put my finger on the difference" conclusions.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 12:34:21 pm by KevinA »
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free1000

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2013, 03:41:04 pm »

I have tested my Aptus 75, 36Mp against my Nikon D800E and for me the results were in favour of the Aptus 75. 
 
The test was with the 80mm Mamiya (normal) f2.8 lens which is a very good lens compared with the 50mm f1.4 G on the Nikon,  shot at f8, on a tripod, locked down, cable release etc etc.

DR was noticeably better on the Aptus.  Resolution was better on the Aptus,  (at a guess I'd say a perceived appearance of 6 megapixels)  More importantly than all the numbers was the less definable way that MF just looked a bit nicer, maybe due to the way the lens rendered. Somehow the Aptus 75 felt like 'art' and the D800E flt like 'photography' if you get my drift, nothing wrong with either, just a different aesthetic.

But I feel the advantage of the MF back would disappear completely shooting from an aircraft. The availability of DR lenses, the higher ISO's etc etc would mean that the result would be in favour of the DSLR. I have shot aerials a few times from a Cessna 172, and I left the Mamiya Aptus on the ground and took my 5DMk2 up instead, the 5D2 was a far inferior image quality to the Aptus, but the end result I'm sure was better than I could have achieved with MF.

Having read some other posts on this thread I'm wondering if the use of a gyro, while maybe itself introducing limitations might work better with an MF if it means a more constrained, slower, considered and planned mode of shooting than with the DSLR.
 
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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2013, 10:47:12 pm »

Thanks for all your well considered replies, there is a huge lack of independent reviews comparisons on the web, lots of "I can't put my finger on the difference" conclusions.

There is always one really great independent reviewer.... you!

Getting a medium format system to test, if you have any serious interest in potentially buying, is very easy. There are several companies in each world region who exist solely to make that process easier for you. I can't speak for every such company but at DT we can provide Remote Demos, raw files, rental-towards-purchase, and in person demos. We even have people who fly to NYC just for this reason (though granted it's not a bad place to go).

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2013, 11:46:41 pm »

Medium format is great. 35MM digital is great. MFT is great. It all boils down to what is called for. I wouldn't use a ball-peen hammer to frame a house. I wouldn't write a check with a pencil. If I didn't have to schlep stuff around, I'd drive a subcompact instead of a crossover. If I wanted to shoot video, I'd use a $1,300 video camera instead of a $1,300 MFT camera. Tools are tools. There are lots of different types of screwdrivers. Some are better for some tasks, some are better for others.

Is MF worth the money and trouble? Rent one and see what you think. And of course, there is always the cost to benefit ratio to consider. If you can bill out enough to pay for an MF back, camera body and lens within a year, great! If you are wealthy, don't lose sleep over the matter. If you are an enthusiast, that's a personal decision.
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yaya

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2013, 06:06:30 am »

Kevin when you're ready to try MF let me know, I can come fly with you and bring some kit along as well...

Yair
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KevinA

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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2013, 03:33:58 pm »

Kevin when you're ready to try MF let me know, I can come fly with you and bring some kit along as well...

Yair
Yair,
I might take you up on that, how would I contact you?
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Re: Still pondering the MF conundrum
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 03:30:36 am »

Yair,
I might take you up on that, how would I contact you?

Hi Kevin, my email and mobile number are in my signature

Thanks

Yair
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