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Author Topic: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?  (Read 31565 times)

Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2014, 04:21:11 am »

I must say that the rumors about Epson printers always clogging feels a bit exaggerated. We are a lot of printers that use x900 printers without any problem. We have a 4900 that we don't use that much, can be standing still for a week or two. When we then start to print on that printer, we have to do a nozzle cleaning or two, but not more than that. As with all internet rumors, it's only those that have a problem that write about it. We, that are happy users, enjoy printing with it instead.

Best regards

Stefan
http://www.korta.nu/profiler
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deanwork

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2014, 09:21:02 am »

It's not exaggerated if one of you nozzles completely drops out and never came back, which happened to me after a year and a half.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2014, 11:58:55 am »

I wonder how the speed is for the 8400 vs the HP Z3200? (or a 24" to 24" test)
I also wonder if there has been any direct image file to file tests of which printer uses more ink? but image quality would have to be in the comparison if one was noticeably better.  I have heard the HP BW prints are more neutral vs Canon maybe hard to profile for BW(?)

I can answer you that quite easily: Last week I sent a file to print on the Z3200, 24x36" print of a BW image on matte paper(24" roll). Right after the spooling and while the printer was starting to wake-up I sent another job to the IPF 8400, 5 color prints of 16x24" on Canson Platine (24" roll). Both jobs with equivalent print settings and guess who finished first? The Canon IPF 8400 finished the last print a couple of seconds before the HP. The 8400 printed 80" on a 24" roll while the Z3200 printed 36".

The BW from the Z3200 is simply dead neutral (and more beautiful IMHO) than any other printer with OEM inks.

Best regards and happy new year!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 12:55:37 pm by Geraldo Garcia »
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deanwork

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2014, 12:23:49 pm »

I can match the print color of the HPZ with the Canon for "neutral" output, but I have to use the TBW rip by Bowhaus. Canon must have left that up to them because they offer no decent em solution themselves ( but that is ok with me because they had the sense to let someone do it well). Both of these brands have grays that are a hair to the cool side of neutral but they are very nice even without a slight color toning, which is very minimal if you even want that.

With the HPZ you can do it straight from the conventional driver. The bigger difference for me with the Z is the dmax on matte rag media. The Vivera black is just a lot darker and easily measurable and they best black anyone has come up with for matt media. If both of these printers had one more light light gray they might come close to the Piezography inks in highlight subtlety and that dimensional quality. But as good as they are they aren't there yet in that department.

john

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2014, 03:26:16 pm »

Thanks for that Geraldo...wow, darn fast! Happy new year to you too! I know if I select detail/more ink on the HP, I'm looking at 30+ minutes on a 24x36" print.

John, funny you mention "dimensional quality". It is something I am "chasing". Well Maybe not chasing, but I did see it in a BW Epson sample print with nice skin pours and deep blacks(upon close inspection without glass), so perhaps I shouldn't expect that as I have this ceiling of satisfaction I feel I am trying to surpass with a Ahhha moment!...But maybe I should quit on that and just enjoy the prints as they are.

I have very little to nil expereince with matte paper, as my MK has clogged on a Relaitic Litho I have tested 2 images on. The first the profile was wrong, and the second after a profile was made nicely, the MK head was clogged. So 2 ugly posters from the Litho roll :-) Then I printed one color poster on satin and by the end the belt was spaghetti! I have no other matte experience, just Satins. Soon enough, I will have it back up and running.(Monday/Wednesday perhaps).

Anyway,
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 04:10:19 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Jglaser757

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2014, 04:00:05 pm »

I must say that the rumors about Epson printers always clogging feels a bit exaggerated. We are a lot of printers that use x900 printers without any problem. We have a 4900 that we don't use that much, can be standing still for a week or two. When we then start to print on that printer, we have to do a nozzle cleaning or two, but not more than that. As with all internet rumors, it's only those that have a problem that write about it. We, that are happy users, enjoy printing with it instead.

Best regards

Stefan
http://www.korta.nu/profiler

I have a 1 month old epson 9900 and it has clogged. I panicked a little, called my seller, they talked me thru an incorrect solution. I ran a test print, cleaned,ran a test print, cleaned again, and resolved the issue. Do I care that I had an issue.Yes, but that is because i didnt think I knew what to do. However, based upon the ultimately output and tonal gradation of this beast. I AM VERY HAPPY with this printer.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2014, 04:41:50 pm »

I have a 1 month old epson 9900 and it has clogged. ......However, based upon the ultimately output and tonal gradation of this beast. I AM VERY HAPPY with this printer.

You certainly have more heart and patients than I do. I suffered more than 1 clog, but eventually after a number of models I had to give up.  As mentioned before, "Insanity is defined by repeating a process and expecting different results".

For all intensive purposes I may have seen the edge on a BW Epson printfrom a 79x, But I have not seen a sample of what a HP or Canon can do . At the end I will not have any other print to compare outputs, but I know that all 3 can produce exceptional quality prints. I have gone to the Getty museum and seen a number of prints that looked really nice, and I think they are done with the HP z series. Without close insepction to see the dimentional quality, there is no reason...But I do have a slight itch for that quality, I must admit! :-)
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alan a

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2015, 02:01:05 am »

Get the Canon, and don't look back. Really, stop fussing, the Canon at that price is a fantastic deal. Although you can see from my earlier posts that I favor Epson over the Canon because the Epson is easier for me to load cut sheets, the roll paper transport is better, and it has a slight quality edge, the differences are not that great.  I think the quality difference is so slight, that if I did not have them both and could compare prints side by side, I would never spot it. I dread the day, and I know it's coming, that I need a service call to clear a clog with the Epson.  The Canon, OTOH, is exceptionally reliable. My only concern is that I am waiting for a 6500 to come out, and I am guessing that it will be soon.  When it does, I'll buy it.

This is a tough one.  I don't know much about the problems you are having, but it sure sounds like it could be the head, and worst of all, not knowing what it is means that even after all that money you could still have a lemon on your hands.  Otherwise, its really too much money to throw at a printer that isn't guaranteed to work. . . I just don't know about the service for these printers where basically they just randomly replace stuff at your cost and hope something fixes the the problem.  That kind of service is pathetic.  A

Many thanks to all of you for your advice.  See my separate posting about service and repair of the Epsons in Washington DC.  "Landscapes" comment about randomly replacing parts is precisely what the factory authorized repair guys would do, and they admitted as much.  The other factor is the various long threads on repairing these printers.  They have hundreds of moving parts, and since my 7900 is probably 5 or 6 years old, I decided it just didn't make sense to spend a minimum of $600 to $700 on a repair, as that would be the LOWEST cost repair.  That is half the price of a new 24" Canon.  Spending that kind of money on an older printer, versus a new one -- the choice was a no-brainer.  I agree with Paris1968 on that point.

Ultimately, I ended up ordering the Canon 8400.  I based that decision on (1) the price of the 6400 versus the 8400 after the rebate, as the 8400 includes a much larger rebate.  (2)  Then I factored in the ink that the printers start out with.  The 6400 comes with starter cartridges that are 90 ml.  I assumed I'd soon have to buy another set of the 130 ml cartridges for about $900.  That would be a total of 220 ml.   The 8400, by contrast, comes with full size 330 ml cartridges, or about 110 ml more than the 6400 with the starters and a full $900 replacement set of 130 ml.  So the price difference between the two printers is largely covered by the additional ink the 8400 comes with.  

That may not be true in the future, as the price difference is minimized by the $300 rebate for the 6400 versus the $800 rebate for the 8400.  But with those rebates, the result is that the cost difference is covered to a signficant extent by the extra ink that comes with the 8400.  
I don't know how often I will make the mega-sized prints that the 8400 is capable of, but at least I will have the capability.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 02:16:18 am by alan a »
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2015, 04:56:19 am »

It's not exaggerated if one of you nozzles completely drops out and never came back, which happened to me after a year and a half.
I know that this printer has had its fair share of problems, but we are a lot of happy users that never has a problem with it. When you read some posts it feels like all x900 printers will have clogs that can't be solved.
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chez

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2015, 09:01:04 am »

I know that this printer has had its fair share of problems, but we are a lot of happy users that never has a problem with it. When you read some posts it feels like all x900 printers will have clogs that can't be solved.

So basically people are rolling the dice when they purchase an Epson printer. You might luck out and only have a few problems...or you might need to continuously go through the head clean...test print cycle. I'd rather not gamble.
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Jglaser757

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #90 on: January 01, 2015, 09:45:54 am »

Many thanks to all of you for your advice.  See my separate posting about service and repair of the Epsons in Washington DC.  "Landscapes" comment about randomly replacing parts is precisely what the factory authorized repair guys would do, and they admitted as much.  The other factor is the various long threads on repairing these printers.  They have hundreds of moving parts, and since my 7900 is probably 5 or 6 years old, I decided it just didn't make sense to spend a minimum of $600 to $700 on a repair, as that would be the LOWEST cost repair.  That is half the price of a new 24" Canon.  Spending that kind of money on an older printer, versus a new one -- the choice was a no-brainer.  I agree with Paris1968 on that point.

Ultimately, I ended up ordering the Canon 8400.  I based that decision on (1) the price of the 6400 versus the 8400 after the rebate, as the 8400 includes a much larger rebate.  (2)  Then I factored in the ink that the printers start out with.  The 6400 comes with starter cartridges that are 90 ml.  I assumed I'd soon have to buy another set of the 130 ml cartridges for about $900.  That would be a total of 220 ml.   The 8400, by contrast, comes with full size 330 ml cartridges, or about 110 ml more than the 6400 with the starters and a full $900 replacement set of 130 ml.  So the price difference between the two printers is largely covered by the additional ink the 8400 comes with.  

That may not be true in the future, as the price difference is minimized by the $300 rebate for the 6400 versus the $800 rebate for the 8400.  But with those rebates, the result is that the cost difference is covered to a signficant extent by the extra ink that comes with the 8400.  
I don't know how often I will make the mega-sized prints that the 8400 is capable of, but at least I will have the capability.

Congrats on the new beast!!! I totally get the logic and would have done the same if I had not seen the difference(its subtle and probably can compensate for it with lots of fine tuning).

Interesting how this becomes a fight about which is better? Just like the Nikon vs Canon rivalry. I shot both and each has strengths and weaknesses.

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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2015, 09:53:59 am »

So basically people are rolling the dice when they purchase an Epson printer. You might luck out and only have a few problems...or you might need to continuously go through the head clean...test print cycle. I'd rather not gamble.

I do think that you will find unhappy users of every printer on the market. Life's a gamble.
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alan a

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2015, 12:22:44 pm »

Get the Canon, and don't look back. . .  I think the quality difference is so slight, that if I did not have them both and could compare prints side by side, I would never spot it. I dread the day, and I know it's coming, that I need a service call to clear a clog with the Epson.  The Canon, OTOH, is exceptionally reliable.

Congrats on the new beast!!! I totally get the logic and would have done the same if I had not seen the difference(its subtle and probably can compensate for it with lots of fine tuning).  Interesting how this becomes a fight about which is better? Just like the Nikon vs Canon rivalry. I shot both and each has strengths and weaknesses.

I have not had the opportunity to directly compare prints from Epson and Canon when all the variables are the same.  Meaning identical prints from the same file and same PC or Mac.  I am an advanced amateur.  Therefore, I agree with Paris1968 that any differences would be not even noticed, without a side by side comparison.  Even, then, for my purposes, I doubt that any very subtle difference that could be seen in a side by side comparison would influence my decision on which printer to buy.  Professionals who print for a living would likely base a decision on those very subtle differences, but that is not the case with me.  Finally, since I largely print from rolls, the issues involving sheet feeding on the Canon are less important, at least for me.

I have owned the HP Z3100 and the Epson 7900.  As explained below, I had serious problems with both.  I agree with comment from Jglaser that for some of those who post, this is a battle to defend their own purchases, not very different from the battles over Canon versus Nikon.  IMHO those battles are just plain infantile and silly.  When I am asked for camera recommendations, I tell friends that either Nikon or Canon are fine, and which camera is "up" or "down" in reviews varies from year to year depending on the latest release of the model.

With that being said, three points.  (1)  My number one piece of advice would be to NEVER buy a printer in the first six months of the release of a new model.  I made that mistake with both HP and Epson, and wow, was it a huge mistake.  Just look at the threads, in this forum, in the early days of the release of those printers.  Both the HP Z3100 and Epson 7900 suffered from crippling problems in the first six to eight months.  Before buying the Canon, the first thing I did was look to see when the Canon 8400 was first released, and to see if any early problems have been worked out, and that appears to be the case. These manufacturers are utterly irresponsible because they release defective products -- and it takes months to fix the problems.  During those months, their customers are the guinea pigs who test the defective products for those manufacturers.  The only reason that the manufacturers get away with it, as compared with auto manufacturers, is that printers don't kill you when they fail.  They simply frustrate the owners who must cope with defective products.  And before anyone defends Epson or HP, read the threads during the first six months of the release of those printers.  The problems were so glaring, immediate and serious -- there is no way that the companies could not have known.  If they didn't know about the problems prior to releasing the products, it would then mean that they did almost no testing to verify the operation of the printers.

(2)  The other point would be the really dumb engineering decisions.  Based on what is reported in this thread, the Canon engineers should copy the Epson design for sheet and roll feeding.  Canon knows that they are criticized in that regard, and have been for years.  But have done nothing to fix it. The Epson engineers should have solved the clogging problem years ago, since it has plagued Epson printers for years and years.  Why didn't they solve that with the 7900?  It says something that 7900 owners could only solve the problem of wasted ink in nozzle cleanings by accessing a service menu that was never intended to accessed by consumers.  Epson has known that we all are doing that -- indeed, it was an Epson technician who told participants in the forum how to access the service menu -- yet they have never provided the equivalent of the level 1 or 2 service cleanings in the main firmware.  Why not?  Could it be because nozzle cleanings in the main menu waste huge amounts of ink, especially if viewed over the entire time you own the printer, and Epson makes huge profits off all the extra ink that is sold?  What other explanation could there be for not fixing the clogging problem, once and for all, or at least providing the same flexibility in the main menu as in the service menu?

Both Canon and Epson suffer from head failures if the printers are used infrequently.  As discussed here, in the case of Canon:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=96473.0

HP addressed that problem and the issue of nozzle clogs.  The downside of their system is the goop and ink that is left behind, but for amateurs, they were the first and only manufacturer to address how to keep printers working reliably when those printers are used infrequently by amateurs as compared with daily use in printing shops.

(3)  The other issue is variability in manufacturing, and IMHO this is more of an issue for Epson than for others.  The reports from Epson owners simply are all over the map in terms of whether they have clogging problems in addition to other issues.  Some Epson owners have no problems, and others are really screwed.  My conclusion is that there must be an issue of variability in manufacturing, since there is no other explanation.

In conclusion, I lived through the enormous frustration of owning defective products from both HP and Epson.  I was a fool who bought those printers in the first six months though.  In any case, having lived through that, my number one criteria now is simple reliability.  That is based on the assumption that all three manufacturers have printers that turn out very good prints, and I would never see the difference unless they were placed on a table side by side, and even then the differences would be pretty subtle.

As an advanced amateur, who lacks the time to invest in addressing defective products, I simply want equipment to work reliably and consistently.  That is not too much to ask.  Canon and Nikon largely deliver on that expectation with cameras.  Why the manufacturers of printers can't accomplish that is the question.  Maybe they all need to be sued by class action attorneys, since sales and legal judgements appear to be all they care about.  

If they actually cared about the frustrations of their customers, all three manufacturers would produce better and more reliable printers.

The conclusion that they all suffer from their own set of problems is the only conclusion that is true IMHO.  Since I am tired of the clogging of Epson, I am now moving on to Canon, having tried the other two manufacturers.  I am hoping, based on reports here, that Canon may be more reliable.  But apparently their heads fail every 3 or 4 years based on the thread I cited above?  Even then, at least I know that it is the price of ownership with Canon, and I can replace the heads on my own without a service call.  That may be expensive reliability, but at least it is predictable, consistent and something I can address myself in a matter of minutes.  And my own guess is that the cost of replacing a head will be no greater, and probably less, than the value of all the wasted ink on an Epson due to frequent cleanings.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:39:10 pm by alan a »
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aaronchan

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2015, 12:47:49 pm »

(2)  The other point would be the really dumb engineering decisions.  Based on what is reported in this thread, the Canon engineers should copy the Epson design for sheet and roll feeding. 

It's patterned

alan a

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2015, 01:00:07 pm »

It's patterned

You mean patented?  I'm sure that the Canon engineers and lawyers could develop a better design that would not violate patents.  A straight through paper flow is hardly something that Epson can patent, but I will leave it to the patent lawyers to debate that point.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2015, 03:13:31 pm »

I agree with you Alan on this issue. With some circumstances that make one brand more attractive than the other.

As long as we expect technology to make things more reliable and more affordable, there are capable companies in the advantageous position to take advantage of this, and deliver just the opposite(well, to milk as much $ as possible sometimes)!

So I look for new brands with new visions, and less of a greed instilled crony disposition to come up with solutions for such idiotic problems we consumers consume and expect different results, and kill our time with.

But I do wonder what Mimaki, Mutoh, Roland, etc do? Do they have a "Fine Art" printer without issues? I know the entry to them is much higher, and they are true production machines, but what if they had a sideline for artists, low volume consumers?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 05:24:21 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2015, 03:35:42 am »


The Epson engineers should have solved the clogging problem years ago, since it has plagued Epson printers for years and years.  Why didn't they solve that with the 7900?

I do agree that they should have solved the problem long time ago, but I do think that they have done so now with the new SureColor P600. I have it for test now for a month, standing in a room without any humidifier. The humidity is around 20 %, sometimes even lower. It has been standing still for days now and then, a user pattern that I think would be very normal for an advanced amateur. During this time I have had only one nozzle clog and it took just one cleaning to get rid of that. I am so looking forward to Epson releasing updated models of their printers in the pro line up.
Best regards

Stefan
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Czornyj

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2015, 04:26:32 am »

What does it have to do with LFP models? The SPR3000 and SP3880 are also not problematic. It's the x900/x890 series and SP11880 models that are known for having issues.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2015, 05:29:02 am »

I don't know what to make of these designs that simply fail the user. How did they put a belt that gets shredded in less than 700square feet? Or, if a wear part, how hard could it have been to design one that snaps together without the need of stiping the machine!  So I pull at my thoughts vs my hair! :-)

Its frustrating that I can't print. Waiting for parts, then seeing if the tech can make it out, or if I want to do it myself...play with it all day, perhaps more if I'm not careful on replacing the belt or something.
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: Have you switched from Epson to Canon?
« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2015, 08:54:06 am »

What does it have to do with LFP models? The SPR3000 and SP3880 are also not problematic. It's the x900/x890 series and SP11880 models that are known for having issues.
Yes, but I don't think that Epson has spent hundreds of millions on a new ink set and a new printer head just to use that in a amateur printer for A3+. I expect that they will release updates for their pro line during 2015. I hope that the first one out is the 11880, it's about time that a new 64" printer is released.
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