do you believe in obscenity

[David Sutton]

Hear, hear, Michael, but I'll go a step beyond that and say that as near as I can tell, in any art, no matter how hard you work, innate talent is what takes you beyond good to unforgettable. I think I've mentioned this before on LuLa, but my wife and I had a friend who was a concert pianist. She'd worked at it for decades, and technically she was flawless, but to me there always was something missing in her ability to interpret, and I find I'm not alone in that evaluation. I always think back to Oscar Levant. He wasn't a very good mechanic. When he played Gershwin he'd sometimes miss notes, but the way he played it always could bring me to tears. I think visual art is like music. To be absolutely tops you have to have a particular gene -- one that's pretty rare.

And yes, equipment has absolutely nothing to do with it. Think back to the kind of equipment people like HCB and Kertesz were using. Nowadays there's nothing out there that comes close to being that awkward and difficult.

Folks often confuse the "10,000 hour rule" with being up with the best. It just means you have mastered your craft, it doesn't mean people will like what you do.
I don't know about innate talent.
I mean I know it exists, but I don't know whether there is some aspect of "talent" that can be learned. When teaching students, I have seen many with real talent fall away when it becomes tough, as it inevitably does, because they don't have stickability. And I have seen some students who were "all thumbs" become wonderful players, because when the practice became difficult they never knew it because it was always difficult.
Musically, I have no innate talent. But I have the ability to work at something and change myself in the process. There have been moments of ineffable joy playing classical guitar. Quite a lot of cr*p as well.

Back on topic: who's counting the money when it's our lives that we are investing in our art/craft?

[michael]

Speaking of awkward and difficult, I am on my way down to Mexico at the moment, and have just started shooting with my Leica M lenses on a Sony A7r. My write-up will come in a few weeks, but this is a total manual world...focus, exposure... and I'm loving it!!!

Suddenly it's 1975 except with image quality that we could have only dreaming of in the film days.

Film (err..report) at 11.

Michael

[slackercruster]

OP, yes.

Over the years, $100,000K +. So, yes it obscene.

But the alternative is to leave it behind for someone else to spend for me when I die. In my case the someone's in question seldom see me or talk with me. So as long as I have enough $ to live comfortable, I spend the rest.  Don't have much time left...

[slackercruster]

I heard he never sold any. Which one is it?

One or none...not much difference.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

One or none...not much difference.

There is for me. I've been bragging that I've been more "successful" than Van Gogh 

[stamper]

One or none...not much difference.

One is 100% more than the other?

[Rob C]

OP, yes.

Over the years, $100,000K +. So, yes it obscene.

But the alternative is to leave it behind for someone else to spend for me when I die. In my case the someone's in question seldom see me or talk with me. So as long as I have enough $ to live comfortable, I spend the rest.  Don't have much time left...

Far from me to tell you how to think, but I know this: sometimes, when you think you have reached the point where you don't really want any more time, your life can suddenly change by accident and living takes on a fresh appeal once more. What makes the difference is an unexpected injection of excitement you clearly didn't think would happen. In the past few weeks this came to me on a couple of levels, one of which was the Coke thing; suddenly I no longer moon about wishing my models past back again, I am able to realise it was a phase - a delightful and rewarding one - but a phase nonetheless.

I have been waiting for three medical appointments that were all due in September; for the first time the health service crisis has touched me, and despìte two trips to the hospìtal to see why I can't get those dates, the 'phone doesn't ring. And even there, I have suddenly changed from a condition of mild worry to not giving a damn, happier in the belief that since I feel perfectly okay, then for all the difference, I must be okay. I could be wrong, but hell, everything ends anyhow, so better to stop worrying and learn to enjoy what's possible and still under one's own control.

Kids? They have their own problems, and who knows how well or otherwise they can cope? Those things affect their reactions to their outside worlds too.

Rob C

[RSL]

Speaking of awkward and difficult, I am on my way down to Mexico at the moment, and have just started shooting with my Leica M lenses on a Sony A7r. My write-up will come in a few weeks, but this is a total manual world...focus, exposure... and I'm loving it!!!

Suddenly it's 1975 except with image quality that we could have only dreaming of in the film days.

Back in the sixties and early seventies I loved my Leicas, Michael, but I wouldn't go back to split-image focusing on a bet. On the other hand, I have a Summilux on my E-P1 and, as usual, the results are stunning. Leica does know how to make lenses.

[Rocco Penny]

I absolutely believe in the obscene

if you don't ever feel it then you never know, I realized at some point I have to create something. obscene song for the day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuxZyCfCVag

My friend's obscene dental college education & 110k bill taught him something that'll pay at least.
Still, I bet you had way more fun, personal illumination, and ultimate satisfaction spending your 100k than he did spending his.
You could always take your old self and find a cause.
A person like you could fix so many broken things.
Well, there you go.
My lousy 2 cents in a high dollar world.
I want to see your 4 prints now.
Can you show us?
Thank you

[Justan]

I can't help feeling I'm surrounded by folk who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Good one!

[Justan]

I know, but it was a good reply, all the same.

[Rob C]

Shit! And I thought it was Ruskin.

I know he (Ruskin) was reputed to have written to the effect that "there's nothing that one man cannot produce more cheaply than another; those whose only consideration is price are that man's legal prey" or like that.

I always felt that was some kind of validation for good photographic pricing, but I never had need nor nerve to use it in anger.
 
;-(

Rob C

[jjj]

Which brings us back to the "10,000 Hour Rule", which I am firmly convinced is a good yardstick.

To master any art, craft, or profession it takes about 5 years of concentrated full time study and involvement. To whit, the time it takes to become a doctor, a lawyer, an airline pilot, or dare I say a photographer.

I hate the 1000 hour rule. My view is that poor conclusions were drawn from iffy research and after Gladwell championed it it has become the science version of the urban myth.

After spending much of my life teaching photography, lecturing, writing and working one-on-one as a mentor, I have seen first hand countless times that the only people who really become masters (even if they never sell a single print, or earn a single dollar's commission) are those who read, study and practice daily. Month after month. Year after year.

What defines Master?

Good, even great gear is nice, but has little to do with mastery of ones art or craft. It simply takes time, and of course some innate talent doesn't hurt.

Talent can get you there a lot quicker and without it I'm not convinced you ever get that good.
Heck with a millions hours practice, I'd still be a crap singer. 

[jjj]

I'll go a step beyond that and say that as near as I can tell, in any art, no matter how hard you work, innate talent is what takes you beyond good to unforgettable. I think I've mentioned this before on LuLa, but my wife and I had a friend who was a concert pianist. She'd worked at it for decades, and technically she was flawless, but to me there always was something missing in her ability to interpret, and I find I'm not alone in that evaluation. I always think back to Oscar Levant. He wasn't a very good mechanic. When he played Gershwin he'd sometimes miss notes, but the way he played it always could bring me to tears. I think visual art is like music. To be absolutely tops you have to have a particular gene -- one that's pretty rare.

And yes, equipment has absolutely nothing to do with it. Think back to the kind of equipment people like HCB and Kertesz were using. Nowadays there's nothing out there that comes close to being that awkward and difficult.

Absolutely.
I'd also say that many of the masters/geniuses were those who took the accepted way of doing things and did it their own way, usually upsetting the apple cart in the process.

[jjj]

One is 100% more than the other?

Not quite, as one is infinitely greater than zero.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

Not quite, as one is infinitely greater than zero.

Now thats obscene ...

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Positive infinity is greater than zero, negative infinity is less than zero. The twain should never meet, except in a doubling time plot.

Best regards
Erik

Now thats obscene ...

[Rob C]

You guys need to find some work.

Or you need to be poorer.

;-)

Rob C

[jjj]

Shit! And I thought it was Ruskin.

I know he (Ruskin) was reputed to have written to the effect that "there's nothing that one man cannot produce more cheaply than another; those whose only consideration is price are that man's legal prey" or like that.

I always felt that was some kind of validation for good photographic pricing, but I never had need nor nerve to use it in anger.

A local Sheffield Sandwich shop/Bakery uses it. Ruskin had dealings in the area and we have a Ruskin Gallery here.
The full quote is "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey"
I've also thought about using it with regard to pricing. Though this other quote of his is also apposite…

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

[jjj]

Folks often confuse the "10,000 hour rule" with being up with the best. It just means you have mastered your craft, it doesn't mean people will like what you do.
I don't know about innate talent.
I mean I know it exists, but I don't know whether there is some aspect of "talent" that can be learned. When teaching students, I have seen many with real talent fall away when it becomes tough, as it inevitably does, because they don't have stickability. And I have seen some students who were "all thumbs" become wonderful players, because when the practice became difficult they never knew it because it was always difficult.

A friend of mine commented that quite often those with natural talent are the ones who are most likely drift away whilst being taught. And it's something I have observed and also have done. The reason being is that they get bored as they find the subject easier than the level it was being taught at.

Musically, I have no innate talent. But I have the ability to work at something and change myself in the process.

But the ability to work hard or to learn new tricks is also a great talent in itself. Which gets overlooked when people talk about these sorts of things. Possibly one of the most useful talents to have.