Which 60 Inch Printer to choose?

[foto_man]

Hello everyone,

The L.L. community is very knowledgable and I've learned a lot so I will like to ask this question:

Which 60 inch printer to upgrade to? I'm not looking to start a flame war (Canon Vs. Nikon! Film Vs. Digital!).

Rather, I am looking for intelligent analysis and experience from other photogs and 60 inch printer owners.

A little history:

I have experience with the HP z3100 and before the belt self destructed, really really liked it. Built in spectrophotometer, custom profiles for papers, beautiful beautiful B&W prints, very easy to use, etc...etc...

I am planning to keep the z3100 but add a big brother in the form of a 60inch model (if everything works out well).

I will like to stay with HP but am open to other options.

I spoke with a salesman from the place I buy my fine art paper today and he was really trying to sell me on the Epson 11880 model. Said with a 2k+ instant rebate, the out the door price was 6900 bucks!  For a 60+ inch printer, that seems incredible. He also was talking up the canon printer IPF9400. He said HP is exiting the fine art printing market. Who knows, he could have been blowing smoke.

That's why I decided on this post. To get unbiased (I hope) opinions and experiences from the good folks on LL. 

However, although money is a factor (and let's not kid ourselves, a big one at that), I ultimately choose quality over savings if the difference is not life altering.

I will be printing mostly fine art black and white papers on matte paper. I will also print the occasional color shot on semi-gloss/glossy paper.

Warranty and ink prices are also an issue but not the main one.

Please let me know your thoughts. I will be happy to provide more information as needed.

Thank you!

[Ernst Dinkla]

Canon iPF9400. You can use the Z's spectrometer for profiling that printer too and iets gamut is nice. A friend with the 11880 and the 9400 prefers the last for 90% of jobs.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.

[Wayne Fox]

Quality wise, both the Canon and Epson are pretty much equal using comparable settings, and print at similar speeds.  Both printers have MK ink live to the head (it’s the one Epson that doesn’t need to do any ink switching between mk/pk) so the difference is probably going to in things like paper handling, space requirements etc. (and maybe price). The Epson paper path design great and can sometimes be a nice advantage for think medias. The Epson takes up to 64” paper, which can be nice if you need to print on canvas and are gallery wrapping.

The Epson comes with  150ml starter cartridges,  I think the canon comes  with 330ml cartridges ... significant enough to factor into the price comparison.

I had a customer who just bought  an 11880, though they kept their Canon iPF6400.  Not sure why they went with Epson, but they’re very happy with it, already burned through quite a bit of media.  Might be as simple as ability to get ink quickly since we stock it and they are pretty close to my shop.

[foto_man]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the info. I called a couple of retailers and priced both the Epson and Canon.

Both can be had for around 6800 bucks (which I think is fantastic). The HP z6200 however is around 14,500 (and that's if you get a deal).

Do either of you have any experience with the HP's? It's double the price of the comparable Canon/Epson machines. The rep said that HP's have a reputation of being built really well and being very reliable.

I tried to go online to find some reviews/comparisons of the 60 inch printer models but alas, I couldn't find any.

 

[chichornio]

I´ve been in the same dilemma than yours since a couple of months. I`ve lost a few jobs/clients because my HP z3200ps 44" it`s "ONLY" 44 wide. Maybe Ernst can help here, but as far as I know, the HP z6200, which "only" has 8 pigment ink colours, cannot be considered a fineart printer. Is it that right?
Canon appeals more than Epson to me, but I`ve listened to some very frustated experiences from Canon`s owners when they had a printhead issue (very costly compared to HP thermal printhead replacement).

[TSJ1927]

 Do you mind sharing where you got a quote for the Canon ipf9400 (60") for around $6800.00.  The best I've seen is around $10,000.

[foto_man]

Hey TSJ1927,

I got an unsolicited email from a rep @ Shades of paper a quote:

The Canon would be $8300 with a $1400 mail in rebate. = 6900. Shipping will be 9 bucks.

[foto_man]

I´ve been in the same dilemma than yours since a couple of months. I`ve lost a few jobs/clients because my HP z3200ps 44" it`s "ONLY" 44 wide. Maybe Ernst can help here, but as far as I know, the HP z6200, which "only" has 8 pigment ink colours, cannot be considered a fineart printer. Is it that right?
Canon appeals more than Epson to me, but I`ve listened to some very frustated experiences from Canon`s owners when they had a printhead issue (very costly compared to HP thermal printhead replacement).

Chichornio,

Wow, 44 inch is too small? If the z6200 is anything like the z3100/3200, then it's definitely a fine art machine. The rep I spoke with really didn't have anything bad to say about it.

My feeling is that if you like the z series and you can afford it, go with the z6200.

Thoughts?

[OliverS]

If the z6200 is anything like the z3100/3200, then it's definitely a fine art machine.

It´s not a fine art machine. The last FA machine is the 3200 - than the 6100/6200 are machines for fast printers like postermaker or canvasprinter. Sure you can print f.e. Hahnemühle or Mediajet with that machine, but you have to know what you are doing very well.

Just yesterday, we get a claim from a cusotmer who printed HM Rag 308  and are in trouble now because of black scatches at the end of the print ....
After we are asking HP, they said, it´s not a machine for fine art.
Every reseller/retailer will get this information from HP, but we all are knowing, if they can sell a machine, they will do

But, I have customers who are printing with this machine, should be working. But most of our customers are using the Epson 11880.

Hope you find the best for you.

[Ernst Dinkla]

The Z6200 is the big brother of the Z5200, the successor of the Z2100. 8 inks, no gloss enhancer. It has very nice features like optical media transport control, which does not count the media transport axle turns but actual media progress. 4 heads but twice the size each compared to the slower models we normally discuss here. Head price probably double that of the Z3200 heads. It is as usable as the Z5200 or Z2100 for fine art printing, more limited than what the Z3200 offers but not on size and speed. Ink per ML cheaper than what has to paid for in Z3200 carts.

I would go for a Canon iPF9400 though. 12 inks and a nice gamut. On paper handling somewhere between the 11880 and the HP Z6200.  The most recent 60" water based inkjet printer too. Ink fade resistance between that of Vivera pigment and Epson's pigment ink. An affordable third party B&W Rip exists. Head prices have dropped over time for the Canons, $830 for two heads. Sure you have to replace them from time to time. A printer that size goes along with plenty of work I expect and so head wear. It seems that Epson heads of that generation either clog with too little done or wear out with heavy loads within a year so have to be replaced too. Higher price, harder to replace.
Damian's message here says something about the Epson models that are used frequently:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.1440

Edit: Canon's service has been very good for my friend's iPF9000, iPF8300, iPF9400. He uses lots of ink so that may have been counted in at Canon's service department. Heads were often replaced on the iPF9000 free of charge. He has a totally different experience with his 11880.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[chichornio]

It is as usable as the Z5200 or Z2100 for fine art printing, more limited than what the Z3200 offers but not on size and speed. Ink per ML cheaper than what has to paid for in Z3200 carts.

What about the Z6200 gamut? Is it very far from the z3100/z3200 series? Compared to the Canon and the Epson 60" wide? If I buy one the Z6200, I´ll mostly use it for big canvas and some big panorama (on RC paper) prints. Not having a gloss enhancer, will I have some bronzing issues?

[foto_man]

The Z6200 is the big brother of the Z5200, the successor of the Z2100. 8 inks, no gloss enhancer. It has very nice features like optical media transport control, which does not count the media transport axle turns but actual media progress. 4 heads but twice the size each compared to the slower models we normally discuss here. Head price probably double that of the Z3200 heads. It is as usable as the Z5200 or Z2100 for fine art printing, more limited than what the Z3200 offers but not on size and speed. Ink per ML cheaper than what has to paid for in Z3200 carts.

I would go for a Canon iPF9400 though. 12 inks and a nice gamut. On paper handling somewhere between the 11880 and the HP Z6200.  The most recent 60" water based inkjet printer too. Ink fade resistance between that of Vivera pigment and Epson's pigment ink. An affordable third party B&W Rip exists. Head prices have dropped over time for the Canons, $830 for two heads. Sure you have to replace them from time to time. A printer that size goes along with plenty of work I expect and so head wear. It seems that Epson heads of that generation either clog with too little done or wear out with heavy loads within a year so have to be replaced too. Higher price, harder to replace.
Damian's message here says something about the Epson models that are used frequently:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.1440

Edit: Canon's service has been very good for my friend's iPF9000, iPF8300, iPF9400. He uses lots of ink so that may have been counted in at Canon's service department. Heads were often replaced on the iPF9000 free of charge. He has a totally different experience with his 11880.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the feedback. I think the Epsons are pretty much ruled out by me at least at this point.

My issue with the canon is the ink usage and the image quality. It seems that Canon's business model for their printers is to sell the printer cheap and hope to make up the difference with ink sales.

I'm curios: how did your friend manage to have Canon give him the heads for free? Was it a manufacturing defect? Or is a "good" customer ie. spends a lot of $$$?

I wish there was a comparison, side by side, of the specs of the IFP9400 vis a vis the HP Z6200. Or some reviews.

I can't find a decent review of the HP machines on google!

I really like the z3100 but you say the z6200 is not a fine art machine?

I found an interesting video on Youtube (what did we ever do before the internet). I'm not aware of this photogs work but the prints look amazing:

http://youtu.be/e6eSDmMVpVE

His images are color but they look spectacular, at least to my eyes.

The Canon is 4k cheaper though an that goes a long way.

Tough call. Wish there was a way to make a few test prints on both machines to compare side by side.

Thanks for all the input.

Edit: I also found this youtube video on the HP z6200. It also comes with a built in Spectrophotometer. You can get to the printer points by going to 1:57 of the video. The rep also says it has a very wide color gamut.  What is the benefit of Chromatic red?

Here's the link:

http://youtu.be/XOFDbEEuKiA

[foto_man]

It´s not a fine art machine. The last FA machine is the 3200 - than the 6100/6200 are machines for fast printers like postermaker or canvasprinter. Sure you can print f.e. Hahnemühle or Mediajet with that machine, but you have to know what you are doing very well.

Just yesterday, we get a claim from a cusotmer who printed HM Rag 308  and are in trouble now because of black scatches at the end of the print ....
After we are asking HP, they said, it´s not a machine for fine art.
Every reseller/retailer will get this information from HP, but we all are knowing, if they can sell a machine, they will do

But, I have customers who are printing with this machine, should be working. But most of our customers are using the Epson 11880.

Hope you find the best for you.

Hi OliverS,

Thanks for the feedback. So the z6200 is more of a commercial printer as opposed to being used for fine art prints?

Do you own the machine? What caused the black scratches?

[Ernst Dinkla]

I'm curios: how did your friend manage to have Canon give him the heads for free? Was it a manufacturing defect? Or is a "good" customer ie. spends a lot of $$$?


I really like the z3100 but you say the z6200 is not a fine art machine?


His images are color but they look spectacular, at least to my eyes.

He spends a lot on inks. Canon at that time also wanted to introduce the iPF range properly I guess. His experience with Canon service did not change much since though and that is over a period of more than 6 years. I did not mention the two iPF5100s he also has.

I thought someone with a Z2100 would react, who could tell you how that printer copes with the different tasks. Gloss, gamut wise. The Z6200 should act the same.

Meyerowitz is a big name of course. Whether you can judge print quality from a video is something else.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[I.T. Supplies]

Quality wise, both the Canon and Epson are pretty much equal using comparable settings, and print at similar speeds.  Both printers have MK ink live to the head (it’s the one Epson that doesn’t need to do any ink switching between mk/pk) so the difference is probably going to in things like paper handling, space requirements etc. (and maybe price). The Epson paper path design great and can sometimes be a nice advantage for think medias. The Epson takes up to 64” paper, which can be nice if you need to print on canvas and are gallery wrapping.

The Epson comes with  150ml starter cartridges,  I think the canon comes  with 330ml cartridges ... significant enough to factor into the price comparison.

This is a bit off.
Epson and Canon printers both have the mk/pk switching abilities.  Epson uses a little more ink during cleanings and Canon doesn't as much (hence their ink price are a little more).  Canon's x400 line have almost a true straight feed print like Epson, but they don't go at a straight down path.  You can still print on canvas and other thick media (not a posterboard thickness as it can't bend it enough) for the Canon side.

Epson large format printers only come with 110ml of ink throughout the 24", 44" and 60" models.  Canon's 24" comes with 90ml and the 44" and 60" come with 330ml ($2000 value).  Great part on the Canon's side is that their models have the accounting software to help calculate ink usage to better provide pricing to your customers (if you sell the prints).

The Z6200 is still a decent photo printer which is comparable to the Epson and Canon 60" models, just not as many colors.  Usually with less cartridges, it's used for high production printing like Canon's S series with 8 inks vs their 12 inks for higher quality prints (normally reproductions).

Let us know if you have any questions on the printers.

Atlex.com

[enduser]

So Canon has taken up "switching" between the two blacks, wow!

[Wayne Fox]

This is a bit off.
Epson and Canon printers both have the mk/pk switching abilities.  

Maybe semantics?  By switching, I'm referring to the process used in an Epson printer to change from PK to MK and back because the two inks share the same set of nozzles.  I'm not referring to the ability to just "switch" and use one or the other.  I think everyone knows you can use either MK or PK ink in all of these printers.

If you meant some type of literal switching requiring some activity of the printer to prepare for each set of inks, then you are mistaken about the 11880 and probably about the Canon as well. A nozzle test using an Epson 11880 printer prints both the MK and PK set of nozzles in the same pass.  Each ink has it's own set of nozzles.  This is the only current Epson printer that has this capability.

If you send two prints to an Epson 11880, one for MK and the next for PK, there is no activity or delay between the two.

[OliverS]

Hi OliverS, So the z6200 is more of a commercial printer as opposed to being used for fine art prints?

I would say yes, also HP told us, that "it´s a fast printing machine for poster"

Do you own the machine? What caused the black scratches?

No we don´t have one, but some customers of mine.
HP will not help us, they told us that they do not sell this machine in the FineArt business and it´s only for high volume printer who need a fast printing machine - like poster or canvas.

The scratches - i think the paper was curled and that it had contact with the print head.
We will do some test there and look for the settings, as i said, we have customers who are printing with 6200 on HM Rag 308 with succes.
regards
Oliver

[Damir]

I suppose that it is possible to find some companies that use machines you are considering and order prints from them. Than you can compare prints and make your decision.

[aaronchan]

I have used all 3 brands' 60" machines before. But besides the epson's, they were all last generation.

HP Z6100 is a crazy fast machine! with only CMYK+Gray, it is still a very good printer. BUT for RC paper only. I can't use any fine art paper on it such as Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308. It's too thick and the print head will scratch the paper and jam it right away. The other thing is I don't like it won't cut canvas, which I believe Z6200 would be the same as well. The good side is it has the blackest black on all 3 machines, specially the MK. I used to do a lot of backlit film with it, the black is beautiful, but of course you can't compare it with solvent and uv ink.

the epson is a good printer, good in everything, but it's just a too slow compare to the rest of the 2. the print head is non-changeable and very expensive, so if it dies, that will cost you a lot. But be honest, it last a very long time period.

The canon 9100 is my favorite. actually I've test run the 9400 which is freaking amazing! it is super fast with the new screening technology. actually it reduce the usage of ink compare to the X300/X100 series. The loading path is not as good as the epson, but way better than the HP S curve loading method. 12 color lucia ex ink is beautiful, i'm using the 8300 which uses the same ink set, it's just great.

I'll vote for the 9400, to me, it is a sure winner!