A beginners explanation for the tone and tone curves control

[Onslow]

Hi All,
Several times a year, I run a beginners course for newcomers to cameras. I also give talks at my local photo club on editing etc in CC and LR. These talks are mainly aimed at beginners to these programs and editing in general. I have always taken the view that if I can't explain something simply, I don't understand it as well as I could which brings me to my question.
The other night as the evenings meeting was drawing to a close and all was quiet, a hand shot up and asked a question. I had been showing the differences in the LR and ACR basic tone panel and their respective tone curve panels. I had been explaining that these controls are essentially contrast controls and that they enable us to move various tones or brightness levels around in the image.
So, the question was' Why are there so many ways then? If the basic panel does this, why offer a tone curve panel with a parametric and a point curve editor, and why offer the levels and curves in Photoshop?
Crap I thought, I know how these tools work because I use them continuously, I couldn't however come up with a suitable explanation (in my mind) for those present who are mainly entry level to this.. I did say that the basic panel allowed for initial adjustments to be made to an image firstly by setting the exposure and contrast control. If further refinement was required, then the highlights and shadows, followed by the whites and blacks if necessary should be adjusted to taste.
If a further contrast adjustment was then required this is where I use the Parametric and Point curve tone control.  I did explain that these controls while appearing to do the same thing, work in slightly different ways and that you become familiar with the tool and where it should and should not be used.
Now, understanding that these controls are image adaptive proved a problem for me to explain. How to explain that and was that necessary to know considering the experience level of the people.? I was asked by several more experienced people on this as well.
So, I am certain there is a simpler way to describe why we have these controls that appear to do the same thing. Can anyone assist please?
BTW, I have a copy of Jeffs book 'The Digital Negative' and use his processing method...

[Mark D Segal]

My understanding of the difference is that the controls in the Basic panel or "zonal" with hard-wired demarcation or bleed-in boundaries between the zones, while the controls in the Tone Curve panel are more granular and allow the user more control to fine-tune contrast variations. As well, the basic panel provides for some black point and highlight recovery adjustments that use math not available in the Tone Curve interface. Which panel to use may be a matter of user preference for most of the tonal range as one can accomplish similar results in either. 

[jrsforums]

Best explanation I have seen is from George Jardine in his Image Corrections Master Class
http://mulita.com/blog/?page_id=5852

Lots of other free and fee stuff at his site.

Also,, some articles at....
http://www.digitalphotopro.com/search.html?q=Jardine

John

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Best explanation I have seen is from George Jardine in his Image Corrections Master Class
http://mulita.com/blog/?page_id=5852

Lots of other free and fee stuff at his site.

I agree, lots of high quality information on George's site. It really adds a lot of insight to other straight forward "how-to-use" info floating around.

Cheers,
Bart

[Onslow]

My understanding of the difference is that the controls in the Basic panel or "zonal" with hard-wired demarcation or bleed-in boundaries between the zones, while the controls in the Tone Curve panel are more granular and allow the user more control to fine-tune contrast variations. As well, the basic panel provides for some black point and highlight recovery adjustments that use math not available in the Tone Curve interface. Which panel to use may be a matter of user preference for most of the tonal range as one can accomplish similar results in either. 

Hmm, That's an interesting distillation of it all. More granular though? How can I better explain that?
Thanks for that...

[Mark D Segal]

Hmm, That's an interesting distillation of it all. More granular though? How can I better explain that?
Thanks for that...

"More granular" means more precise or refined, insofar as users can intervene at any luminance level on the curve and within limits remap it to any other luminance level. A finer level of control over remapping luminance values.

[Onslow]

Best explanation I have seen is from George Jardine in his Image Corrections Master Class
http://mulita.com/blog/?page_id=5852

Lots of other free and fee stuff at his site.

Also,, some articles at....
http://www.digitalphotopro.com/search.html?q=Jardine

John

Uhm, I have all of the LuLa videos on LR4 and 5, Several of Jeffs books including "The Digital Negative' as well as Seth Resnicks books on LR. I think if I can't distill the information I need from that lot, I'm failing somehow.
Does this resource offer something else?
Thanks for that...

[Onslow]

I agree, lots of high quality information on George's site. It really adds a lot of insight to other straight forward "how-to-use" info floating around.

Cheers,
Bart

Thanks Bart, As I replied to John, after all the resources I have, does the Jardine stuff offer anything new which will help me distill this amount down?
Cheers

[Onslow]

"More granular" means more precise or refined, insofar as users can intervene at any luminance level on the curve and within limits remap it to any other luminance level. A finer level of control over remapping luminance values.

Excellent new description! Thanks for that...

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Thanks Bart, As I replied to John, after all the resources I have, does the Jardine stuff offer anything new which will help me distill this amount down?

Hi,

You can judge for yourself, because George Jardine also offers some free content for preview. In my experience, his info surpasses many other offerings (which are often not much more than an application walk-though, also available in the help files, and in more detail).

George, and Martin Evening as well, are very good information sources from a practical point of view. You can also search for the (free) info by Julieanne Kost (mostly Lightroom oriented), while more user oriented and less fundamental, very well informed.

Cheers,
Bart

[Schewe]

So, I am certain there is a simpler way to describe why we have these controls that appear to do the same thing. Can anyone assist please?

The "Basic" panel adjustments are, well basic adjustments that are image adaptive and auto-ranging (meaning the adjustments are image dependent)...The Tone curve panel is a more precise control (using the point curve editor) for point by point adjustments and are not image dependent. The way to think about them are Basic is for gross adjustments and the Curve Editor is for more refined adjustments. Then, to complicate things further, you have local control channels that have variants of the adjustments that are similar but not exactly the same as their same named counterparts...

It can be argued that Lightroom (and Camera Raw) have a dizzying array of sliders and adjustments…and I agree. But every control in ACR/LR have a different processing algorithim and a distinct result. I wouldn't want any to go away…(and it's not likely that they will). If anything, the number of raw processing controls will continue to grow. That's the price of progress :!)

[Onslow]

The "Basic" panel adjustments are, well basic adjustments that are image adaptive and auto-ranging (meaning the adjustments are image dependent)...The Tone curve panel is a more precise control (using the point curve editor) for point by point adjustments and are not image dependent. The way to think about them are Basic is for gross adjustments and the Curve Editor is for more refined adjustments. Then, to complicate things further, you have local control channels that have variants of the adjustments that are similar but not exactly the same as their same named counterparts...

It can be argued that Lightroom (and Camera Raw) have a dizzying array of sliders and adjustments…and I agree. But every control in ACR/LR have a different processing algorithim and a distinct result. I wouldn't want any to go away…(and it's not likely that they will). If anything, the number of raw processing controls will continue to grow. That's the price of progress :!)

Ah, every control has a different processing algorithm. That is one thing I hadn't picked up on.
Thank you very much Jeff for that explanation. It certainly builds on Marks explanation as well. I can certainly now understand this and shall pass this on to the group.
Thanks Jeff and to everyone who has responded for your assistance...

[Rhossydd]

Uhm, I have all of the LuLa videos on LR4 and 5, Several of Jeffs books including "The Digital Negative' as well as Seth Resnicks books on LR. I think if I can't distill the information I need from that lot, I'm failing somehow.

Not necessarily your failing, maybe theirs. You're only really talking about two points of view there, Jeff's and Seth's, other people may use terms and explanations that make more sense to you.

[jrsforums]

Not necessarily your failing, maybe theirs. You're only really talking about two points of view there, Jeff's and Seth's, other people may use terms and explanations that make more sense to you.

+1  

While I feel that George Jardine provides the most depth of understanding, I have also view Laura Shoe's, Tim Grey and Chris Orwig on Lynda.com, and the LuLa videos.  Each provided additional pieces which were valuable.  While the Lula video, was interesting, I did not find it particularly instructional nor insightful.

John