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Author Topic: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently  (Read 8562 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2013, 05:52:13 AM »

Hi,

So what equipment would you suggest from your stand of view?

I am shooting an Hasselbald 555 ELD and I would say MLU is mandatory, but I may be wrong.

Best regards
Erik



As someone who regularly shoots using shutter speeds in the range of 1/15 sec to 8 sec I wouldn't even consider the Leica S2. I know of landscape photographers who have given up on the S2 for landscape and other work due to vibration and it's no better when using the leaf shutter lenses.

The following is the firing sequence when using the leaf shutter lenses.

1.Shutter released
2.Mirror goes up
3.Aperture diaphragm closes down to desired f-stop
4.Focal plane shutter opens
5.Camera starts exposure electronically
6.Central shutter closes
7.Aperture opens
8.Focal plane shutter closes
9.Central shutter opens
10.Mirror returns

A recipe for vibration. Such a pity the leaf shutter can't be used in isolation.

Used with big light in the studio, no problem - apart from tethering - but landscape, nah.

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2013, 06:00:50 AM »

Hi,

So what equipment would you suggest from your stand of view?

I am shooting an Hasselbald 555 ELD and I would say MLU is mandatory, but I may be wrong.

Best regards
Erik





Film + Good IQ + lightweight = Mamiya 7 II

jerome_m

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2013, 08:08:14 AM »

As someone who regularly shoots using shutter speeds in the range of 1/15 sec to 8 sec I wouldn't even consider the Leica S2. I know of landscape photographers who have given up on the S2 for landscape and other work due to vibration and it's no better when using the leaf shutter lenses.

The following is the firing sequence when using the leaf shutter lenses.

1.Shutter released
2.Mirror goes up
3.Aperture diaphragm closes down to desired f-stop
4.Focal plane shutter opens
5.Camera starts exposure electronically
6.Central shutter closes
7.Aperture opens
8.Focal plane shutter closes
9.Central shutter opens
10.Mirror returns

A recipe for vibration. Such a pity the leaf shutter can't be used in isolation.

Used with big light in the studio, no problem - apart from tethering - but landscape, nah.


One can't use mirror lockup on the S2? That seems like a silly omission indeed. On the Hasselblad H cameras, it goes this way:

1.Mirror lockup pressed
2.Mirror goes up
3.Aperture diaphragm closes down to desired f-stop
4.Focal plane shutter opens

5a: press release button
5.Camera opens central shutter and starts exposure
6.Central shutter closes and exposure stops

6a: one can repeat 5a, 6 and 7 as often as one wants for a series of pictures, the only thing that move is the central shutter and that does not add noticeable vibration.

6b: press mirror lock up button to release mirror
7.Aperture opens
8.Focal plane shutter closes (maybe 8 happens before 7, I don't know)
9.Central shutter opens
10.Mirror returns
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craigrudlin

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2013, 09:03:57 AM »

I use a Leica S2 for landscape and similar work.  I was in Iceland this past summer and routinely
took images up to 120 sec. I took many in the 1/30th to several second range of exposure.
I did NOT have any issues with vibration despite fierce wind on at least
one day.  I didn't even use MU routinely.  I have made 40x60 inch prints from these images and
stitched panos up to 96 inches long with no issues regarding focus, etc.  I do NOT have leaf shutter lenses.

I do have a very sturdy gitzo tripod.

This is not to say the person asking the original question should go digital vs. film, only that I politely
disagree with the person who stated you couldn't use the S2 effectively.  It definitely works for me.

I have the images posted on my website, although of course, being the web, they are merely reduced jps.
www.rudlinfineart.com->galleries->portfolios->iceland


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DanielStone

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2013, 09:49:37 AM »

thanks, I'll show him this thread and we'll see what happens :)

I know that for ME, if I were to be looking to buy into a system myself, I'd go with the Hy6 system. Pricey, but from the comparisons I've seen of the glass, probably the best thing short of a tech camera/lenses.

-Dan
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peterv

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2013, 10:29:58 AM »

Of course there is the mirror lock up option on the Leica S2 and S.

On GetDPI there's also a lot of praise how well damped the mirror is. And as an owner of an S2P I can confirm this. Sure, if one wants to use all reolution a MF camera can give, one has to use good techique, which means ML, tripod, high shutter speed.

Klaban, you make it sound as if the S shutter is somehow faulty, which is not the case. The CS is there for high speed flash sync, up to 1/1000.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2013, 11:06:06 AM »

Hi,

What is your take on the Hartblei DCam and Alpa FPS? Both use the Mamiya shutter but both are said to be very well dampened.

Best regards
Erik


A trawl through the archives of sites such as GetDPI will find reports of vibration issues using the S2 and MFD focal plane systems in general when using slow shutter speeds.

Given the choice I'd always go for a leaf shutter system.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2013, 11:29:14 AM »

Hi,

I don't think you can have it all. Myself I shoot medium to small apertures, say f/8 on the best lenses and f/11 - f/16 on the less good ones. When needing DoF I stop down a bit. ISO is kept at 50, so shutter time is the main variable and it tends to be on the long side.

MF and high shutter speeds don't mix well, unless using flash.

Best regards
Erik


Or one could use a leaf shutter system at any speed.

gerald.d

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2013, 12:12:40 PM »

I never use high shutter speeds when using MF.

Interesting - I've not seen this mentioned before.

Obviously in many scenarios the shutter speed is a result of a desire to shoot at base ISO (often low in MF) and optimum lens aperture (typically around the f/8 mark), which means even with lots of light, you're going to end up with a slow shutter speed. Even "sunny 16" with an IQ180 and f/8 is only 1/140th of a second.

But surely there are scenarios where it's preferable to compromise a bit on ideal ISO and aperture in order to get the shot with MF, rather than using an alternative format?

Would you mind explaining the rationale behind your statement?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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gerald.d

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2013, 12:53:45 PM »

Known subject matter in known conditions.

Different formats/cameras for differing work.



Not quite sure I follow.

If it were necessary to use a shutter speed of 1/1000th of a second for a particular shot, and you could expose correctly with ISO100 and f/5.6, you'd choose not to use MF?
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eronald

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2013, 01:44:34 PM »

Indeed it is, but it's such a pity that those wonderful CS lenses can't be used in isolation from the focal plane shutter.

Doug Peterson has suggested that the new Phamiya replacement camera for the DF will probably allow leaf shutter lenses to be used in this way. This is as it should be. More power to their elbow!

Yes, this imaginary camera will be soooooo good. Imagination is always better than reality.
Will Doug go on the record with features and a release date? No? How strange.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 02:00:32 PM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 02:01:22 PM »

Don't buy promises.

sleep with dogs, get fleas :)

Edmund
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peterv

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 03:17:45 PM »

Or one could use a leaf shutter system at any speed.

Which MF camera would that be?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2013, 03:28:20 PM »

Hi,

I am with Keith (?) here. I feel that DSLRs are better at high ISO than MFD and I tend to shoot minimum ISO also my DSLRs. For me, MFDB is on tripod, careful manual focus, minimum ISO, medium aperture, MLU and cable release. Otherwise DSLR. But, I rather use DSLR on tripod, manual focus (LV at 11X), minimum ISO, medium aperture, MLU and self timer/cable release.Under those ideal conditions the MFD system gives sharper images. Better images? That is another discussion, but I obviously think MFD has it merits, else I would not use it.

Best regards
Erik


Interesting - I've not seen this mentioned before.

Obviously in many scenarios the shutter speed is a result of a desire to shoot at base ISO (often low in MF) and optimum lens aperture (typically around the f/8 mark), which means even with lots of light, you're going to end up with a slow shutter speed. Even "sunny 16" with an IQ180 and f/8 is only 1/140th of a second.

But surely there are scenarios where it's preferable to compromise a bit on ideal ISO and aperture in order to get the shot with MF, rather than using an alternative format?

Would you mind explaining the rationale behind your statement?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2013, 04:09:24 PM »

Difficult to predict the future is…



Yes, this imaginary camera will be soooooo good. Imagination is always better than reality.
Will Doug go on the record with features and a release date? No? How strange.

Edmund

eronald

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2013, 09:15:05 PM »

May the farce be with you

Difficult to predict the future is…



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gerald.d

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2013, 10:25:09 PM »

Hi,

I am with Keith (?) here. I feel that DSLRs are better at high ISO than MFD and I tend to shoot minimum ISO also my DSLRs. For me, MFDB is on tripod, careful manual focus, minimum ISO, medium aperture, MLU and cable release. Otherwise DSLR. But, I rather use DSLR on tripod, manual focus (LV at 11X), minimum ISO, medium aperture, MLU and self timer/cable release.Under those ideal conditions the MFD system gives sharper images. Better images? That is another discussion, but I obviously think MFD has it merits, else I would not use it.

Best regards
Erik



I'd rate the IQ180 in a totally different league to any of the Canons I've used (7D, 5D II, 5D III, 1D4, 1Dx), even at ISO100.

As an example comparison, the pixel pitch on the IQ180 is pretty close to that of the 1DIV. So for a given focal length, if you need to stop any "action", or compensate for any possible movement or vibration of the camera, you're going to need the same shutter speed on both. I've recently shot with both IQ180 and 1Dx from a helicopter. There is simply no comparison whatsoever between the two. The IQ180 blows the 1Dx out of the water (or I guess, sky, in this case).

Obviously you need good light, but when if it's possible to pull the shot off with the IQ180, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone - given the choice - would use a DSLR.

"MF and high shutter speeds don't mix well" is not the case in my (admittedly, limited) experience.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2013, 01:07:16 AM »

Hi,

I see your point.

Just adding that I have a P45+ on a Hasselblad 555ELD, the IQ180 on a technical camera would have a larger advantage.  My exposures times seem to vary widely in the 1/4 - 1/250 s range, so I am shooting in a region where mirror and shutter flap may be a problem. The Hasselblad is central shutter, but I have seen shutter induced vibration on my Pentax 67, so I know it can be a problem. Main main DSLR right now is the Sony Alpha 99.

Best regards
Erik



I'd rate the IQ180 in a totally different league to any of the Canons I've used (7D, 5D II, 5D III, 1D4, 1Dx), even at ISO100.

As an example comparison, the pixel pitch on the IQ180 is pretty close to that of the 1DIV. So for a given focal length, if you need to stop any "action", or compensate for any possible movement or vibration of the camera, you're going to need the same shutter speed on both. I've recently shot with both IQ180 and 1Dx from a helicopter. There is simply no comparison whatsoever between the two. The IQ180 blows the 1Dx out of the water (or I guess, sky, in this case).

Obviously you need good light, but when if it's possible to pull the shot off with the IQ180, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone - given the choice - would use a DSLR.

"MF and high shutter speeds don't mix well" is not the case in my (admittedly, limited) experience.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:31:34 AM by ErikKaffehr »
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Rob C

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2013, 03:54:29 AM »

Hi,

I see your point.

Just adding that I have a P45+ on a Hasselblad 555ELD, the IQ180 on a technical camera would have a larger advantage.  My exposures times seem to vary widely in the 1/4 - 1/250 s range, so I am shooting in a region where mirror and shutter flap may be a problem. The Hasselblad is central shutter, but I have seen shutter induced vibration on my Pentax 67, so I know it can be a problem. Main main DSLR right now is the Sony Alpha 99.

Best regards
Erik






Main reason why I let my own 67ll go after about a year; it was beautiful to hold and look at, but even with MU the shutter was the killer. I loved the way it handled Velvia...  something about a big Kodak lightbox and transparencies can never be matched on a hot-damned monitor. Just so tactile-looking under one's Schneider lupe!

Downsides? Always used a tripod with the Pentax. It was why I bought it: hoped for best conditions results for stock...

Rob C

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 (non-P) vs the competition currently
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2013, 04:06:27 AM »

Hi,

I replaced my Manfrotto C55 with a Velbon Sherpa Pro and that did help a lot. So tripod matters, obviously.

I have a 67 projector, from Götschman, glorios images. Perhaps I should get a film magazine for the Hassy and shoot some film.


Best regards
Erik




Main reason why I let my own 67ll go after about a year; it was beautiful to hold and look at, but even with MU the shutter was the killer. I loved the way it handled Velvia...  something about a big Kodak lightbox and transparencies can never be matched on a hot-damned monitor. Just so tactile-looking under one's Schneider lupe!

Downsides? Always used a tripod with the Pentax. It was why I bought it: hoped for best conditions results for stock...

Rob C
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