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Author Topic: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro  (Read 7654 times)

Josh-H

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Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« on: October 24, 2013, 06:05:58 pm »

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Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 06:47:35 pm »

Insanity...lets replace the tower computer case with a stylish trash can that is virtually non-upgradable and then require a tower computer case to be added to the system to make it workable.

Now that's progress, and I really wanted to like the new Mac pro.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 08:10:38 pm »

Insanity...lets replace the tower computer case with a stylish trash can that is virtually non-upgradable and then require a tower computer case to be added to the system to make it workable.

Now that's progress, and I really wanted to like the new Mac pro.

Hum... most photographers already store their images on external raid arrays.

I am not sure to understand why a new and faster unit changes anything and how it tells us anything about the new Mac Pro.

Cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 08:35:21 pm »

Hum... most photographers already store their images on external raid arrays.

I am not sure to understand why a new and faster unit changes anything and how it tells us anything about the new Mac Pro.

Cheers,
Bernard


Most?  Really?  I store my working images internally and I create a fair amount of images each year.  My archived images are stored on a nas and discrete drives taken to to remote location.

So, given the new trashcan (which I really wanted to like), it adds yet another box, for no good reason except for the trashcan being "stylish"?

That's progress?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 09:04:19 pm »

Most?  Really?  I store my working images internally and I create a fair amount of images each year.  My archived images are stored on a nas and discrete drives taken to to remote location.

So, given the new trashcan (which I really wanted to like), it adds yet another box, for no good reason except for the trashcan being "stylish"?

That's progress?

If it is not progress for you, then it is probably time to move (back?) to windows. ;)

I fully understand the point as I believe I was one of the first to raise it here and elsewhere. Design simplicity indeed has to be an end to end thing and not just focus on a single device. So it is totally true that the new Mac pro will be a less elegant solution than the old one for many photographers, eventhough it is a very streamlines device by itself.

I have taken the decision years ago that I didn't want to commit my images to the my CPU box, which meant external raid units. So it doesn't change anything for me whether my workstation has internal storage bays or not (the disks or my Mac pro are mostly un-used). As mentioned a couple of times, live storage access speed is the #1 bottelneck in my workflow, so the Promise TB2 looks very appealing to me. Especially when combined with an optical cable that will enable me to host it in a cabinet several meters away.

If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate a second to dump OSX and invest in a win7/8 workstation. There really isn't any reason to stick to OSX these days (especially with tools like Dexpot being available to simulate Expose on Windows), Win has been great since 7 (which I use at work everyday). The only reasons why I am probably going to stick around OSX this time around is that I don't have the time to manage a migration and find the Mac Pro to probably be the cheapest high end workstation available at the moment from a reputable vendor offering ok customer support (pretty much meaning compared to Dell, and HP).

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 09:06:55 pm »

Insanity...lets replace the tower computer case with a stylish trash can that is virtually non-upgradable and then require a tower computer case to be added to the system to make it workable.
The new Mac Pro is far, far smaller than the old, so "new Mac Pro + external drive" looks to be smaller and lighter than old Mac Pro. Total size and weight seems more important to me than the number of pieces.

(And then there are those of us who used a "tower Mac" mostly for speed, not vast amounts of storage, and so never used most of  those bays and expansion slots --- for us, the old Mac Pro had a lot of wasted bulk and weight.)
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 09:24:23 pm »

If it is not progress for you, then it is probably time to move (back?) to windows. ;)

I fully understand the point as I believe I was one of the first to raise it here and elsewhere. Design simplicity indeed has to be an end to end thing and not just focus on a single device. So it is totally true that the new Mac pro will be a less elegant solution than the old one for many photographers, eventhough it is a very streamlines device by itself.

I have taken the decision years ago that I didn't want to commit my images to the my CPU box, which meant external raid units. So it doesn't change anything for me whether my workstation has internal storage bays or not (the disks or my Mac pro are mostly un-used). As mentioned a couple of times, live storage access speed is the #1 bottelneck in my workflow, so the Promise TB2 looks very appealing to me. Especially when combined with an optical cable that will enable me to host it in a cabinet several meters away.

If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate a second to dump OSX and invest in a win7/8 workstation. There really isn't any reason to stick to OSX these days (especially with tools like Dexpot being available to simulate Expose on Windows), Win has been great since 7 (which I use at work everyday). The only reasons why I am probably going to stick around OSX this time around is that I don't have the time to manage a migration and find the Mac Pro to probably be the cheapest high end workstation available at the moment from a reputable vendor offering ok customer support (pretty much meaning compared to Dell, and HP).

Cheers,
Bernard


Well thanks so much for your advice,  but if I wanted to go back to windows I would simply toss the windows  drive back in the tower and choose it on boot.  But that would also entail switching back to windows for my
tethering laptops and losing the Mac ecosystem (phones and iPads) and most importantly using windows again which is not something I prefer to do.

I'm very happy your workflow and hardware work for you and the new Mac Pro fits your future plans.  I really wanted it to fit mine but it does not.  I'll just keep moving forward as I have.  Progress means different things to different people it seems.

Best of luck to you.

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Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 09:25:40 pm »

The new Mac Pro is far, far smaller than the old, so "new Mac Pro + external drive" looks to be smaller and lighter than old Mac Pro. Total size and weight seems more important to me than the number of pieces.

(And then there are those of us who used a "tower Mac" mostly for speed, not vast amounts of storage, and so never used most of  those bays and expansion slots --- for us, the old Mac Pro had a lot of wasted bulk and weight.)

I'm glad it fits you.
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jduncan

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 12:54:15 pm »

Most?  Really?  I store my working images internally and I create a fair amount of images each year.  My archived images are stored on a nas and discrete drives taken to to remote location.

So, given the new trashcan (which I really wanted to like), it adds yet another box, for no good reason except for the trashcan being "stylish"?

That's progress?


I believe that he is right, most and I will add  most "big time".  From enterprise shared storage to local USB3, esata and thunderbolt external arrays. I will add that a lot of them are running laptops, either as the only machines or combined with a desktop.  Most professionals are not buying big xeon boxes.  Even some of the ones that are, are still using external arrays.

Of course there are many professionals that do not, you by example, but we are not talking about particulars, but big numbers.

External boxes have many benefits. They are in general, easier to configure. Some don't need configuration.  You can lock the box in a sound proof or even secure shell. They have higher capacity. For mac pro users, in particular, the external box is faster (you can buy a card). It's more complicated to replace a disk or read status of an internal raid. Can be used with a laptop  etc.  If we want to get funny, in case of fire, is easier to pick the Pegasus and run with it that running with a big Xeon box :)

The internal drive system on the mac pro is slow. Even on modern machines, when working sequentially, the Pegasus can be competitive with internal SSD (sata). The Areca is even faster.

We may have a different opinion because of our particular environments. I can't gauge the numbers for medium format users. But they are a tinny proportion of professionals, and all the ones that I have met in person are using external arrays. As a technical consultant I meet a bunch of professionals, and most of them do use external arrays. People that have little tech orientation can just buy a Drobo 5D (with build in  battery, so even if your UPS fails it will save the data, try that with a big Xeon box). Some external boxes have easy to use, build in, remote location synchronization. I expect that the next generation will have encryption at a low cost (some of them already have).

I could continue for years, but that illustrate why so many professionals have move to external storage.

Laptop users will love this new box if the price and performance are right. I doubt performance will be and issue.  Intel is in the fight for  mobile graphics adding pressure on Intel /AMD. That means future laptops will be very powerful, not long before they can handle 4K real time.  If it was't for external boxes I will like to see how many people will be using RAID.

Best regards,

J. Duncan


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tived

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 03:03:10 pm »

For those of you who want alternative solutions to the Promise unit

Areca http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm also an 8 drive unit

Like all good companies - they offer support for different operating systems

Henrik
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 03:15:24 pm »

I believe that he is right, most and I will add  most "big time".  From enterprise shared storage to local USB3, esata and thunderbolt external arrays. I will add that a lot of them are running laptops, either as the only machines or combined with a desktop.  Most professionals are not buying big xeon boxes.  Even some of the ones that are, are still using external arrays.

Of course there are many professionals that do not, you by example, but we are not talking about particulars, but big numbers.

External boxes have many benefits. They are in general, easier to configure. Some don't need configuration.  You can lock the box in a sound proof or even secure shell. They have higher capacity. For mac pro users, in particular, the external box is faster (you can buy a card). It's more complicated to replace a disk or read status of an internal raid. Can be used with a laptop  etc.  If we want to get funny, in case of fire, is easier to pick the Pegasus and run with it that running with a big Xeon box :)

The internal drive system on the mac pro is slow. Even on modern machines, when working sequentially, the Pegasus can be competitive with internal SSD (sata). The Areca is even faster.

We may have a different opinion because of our particular environments. I can't gauge the numbers for medium format users. But they are a tinny proportion of professionals, and all the ones that I have met in person are using external arrays. As a technical consultant I meet a bunch of professionals, and most of them do use external arrays. People that have little tech orientation can just buy a Drobo 5D (with build in  battery, so even if your UPS fails it will save the data, try that with a big Xeon box). Some external boxes have easy to use, build in, remote location synchronization. I expect that the next generation will have encryption at a low cost (some of them already have).

I could continue for years, but that illustrate why so many professionals have move to external storage.

Laptop users will love this new box if the price and performance are right. I doubt performance will be and issue.  Intel is in the fight for  mobile graphics adding pressure on Intel /AMD. That means future laptops will be very powerful, not long before they can handle 4K real time.  If it was't for external boxes I will like to see how many people will be using RAID.

Best regards,

J. Duncan




I use a very large NAS myself but I want my working files ( a complete years worth) local on my machine.  I'm surely not claiming externals are not valuable but rather internals have a big place in a lot of peoples workflow.   The new Mac pro makes that impossible.  I don't believe that is progress.  YMMV.

BTW, I'm really happy that makes me "small time".
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jduncan

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 05:17:59 pm »

I use a very large NAS myself but I want my working files ( a complete years worth) local on my machine.  I'm surely not claiming externals are not valuable but rather internals have a big place in a lot of peoples workflow.   The new Mac pro makes that impossible.  I don't believe that is progress.  YMMV.

BTW, I'm really happy that makes me "small time".

Just to clarify, by "big time" I mean by a long margin, that is ,that the percentage of people that use external is much more. It's not related to you personally in any way.  It's not a critique to your decision to work different. I do believe that an external solution is faster than the old mac pro internal solution, unless you do a lot of custom configuration. That is not bad, but it precludes it as a common solution. Few people has the skills and the time to build an "a la carte" system. But I understand that is a great option for the ones that do. 

By the way, I see multiple issues with the new machines, in particular the non standard graphics cards. I believe that's an area were mac pro users will loose the most, as  we were starting to see new cards on the open market targeted to mac users.

It's important to point out that in the technical specifications of the Mac pro the graphic cards are not mark as user replaceable, as the memory and the storage is.

Best regards,

J. Duncan



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John.Murray

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 06:24:55 pm »

Insanity...lets replace the tower computer case with a stylish trash can that is virtually non-upgradable and then require a tower computer case to be added to the system to make it workable.

Now that's progress, and I really wanted to like the new Mac pro.

compared to what?  let's see:

the Mac Pro is 9" tall x 6.5" wide
the Promise roughly 13"x7.5"x8"

In terms of power a QPI throughput DOUBLE of anything thing else along with NATIVE 4K support

Not a large footprint....  a fraction of a Mac Pro Tower &  possibly smaller than that 30' usb extension coiled up?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 06:28:16 pm by John.Murray »
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BJL

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one big unit (old Mac Pro) vs two smaller units (new Mac Pro + external drive)
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 06:38:16 pm »

I am bit puzzled by comparing "interval vs external disk drives" while ignoring size differences. The case where the old Mac Pro does not need any external drives while the new one does is where the mass storage needs are covered by at most about four drives, so the comparison is:

big Mac Pro tower
vs
far smaller Mac Pro cylinder (with some internal storage) plus up to four bays in an external drive, with TB2 making this as fast as internal drives.


It looks to me that the latter option is likely to be smaller and lighter than the former, with no speed disadvantage.

And if more storage is required, so the old Mac Pro also needs external drives, it is:

far bigger main unit (old Mac Pro) plus somewhat smaller external drive enclosure(s)
vs
far smaller main unit (new Mac Pro) plus somewhat larger external drive enclosure(s).


Putting aside the strangeness of counting just the _number_ of units and without respect to _size_ or _weight_ of the units, what is the disadvantage of the more modular arrangement of the new Mac Pro approach? Isn't modularity good for flexibility and easier upgrades?


P. S. Some weights to go with John Murray's dimensions:
Mac Pro (mid 2012): 41.2 pounds
Mac Pro 2013 + Promise Pegasus R4, 4-bay TB enclosure: 11 + 15.3 = 26.4 pounds
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 07:06:20 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 09:40:36 pm »

Does anybody know then the new pegasus will become available for order?

Thank you.

cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 11:40:04 pm »

compared to what?  let's see:

the Mac Pro is 9" tall x 6.5" wide
the Promise roughly 13"x7.5"x8"

In terms of power a QPI throughput DOUBLE of anything thing else along with NATIVE 4K support

Not a large footprint....  a fraction of a Mac Pro Tower &  possibly smaller than that 30' usb extension coiled up?  ;)

And its TWO pieces at least.  Everyone has different needs.  Smaller really means nothing to me.  For ME its not progress, its a step backwards.  Neither does 4k.  I'm sure the machine had many drooling.  Good for them.

As much as I really wanted this to work for me, it does not.  YMMV.

And no, that 30 foot USB extension is MUCH smaller.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:59:13 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Craig Lamson

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I am bit puzzled by comparing "interval vs external disk drives" while ignoring size differences. The case where the old Mac Pro does not need any external drives while the new one does is where the mass storage needs are covered by at most about four drives, so the comparison is:

big Mac Pro tower
vs
far smaller Mac Pro cylinder (with some internal storage) plus up to four bays in an external drive, with TB2 making this as fast as internal drives.


It looks to me that the latter option is likely to be smaller and lighter than the former, with no speed disadvantage.

And if more storage is required, so the old Mac Pro also needs external drives, it is:

far bigger main unit (old Mac Pro) plus somewhat smaller external drive enclosure(s)
vs
far smaller main unit (new Mac Pro) plus somewhat larger external drive enclosure(s).


Putting aside the strangeness of counting just the _number_ of units and without respect to _size_ or _weight_ of the units, what is the disadvantage of the more modular arrangement of the new Mac Pro approach? Isn't modularity good for flexibility and easier upgrades?


P. S. Some weights to go with John Murray's dimensions:
Mac Pro (mid 2012): 41.2 pounds
Mac Pro 2013 + Promise Pegasus R4, 4-bay TB enclosure: 11 + 15.3 = 26.4 pounds

Forget the 'old' Mac pro. 

Lets consider what COULD have been.  There is no reason not to have a tower the size of a Mac Pro with 8  drives.  My favorite case can do just that.

Is the size a problem?  Nope, its under my desk.

And what does the weight really mean?  Are you moving the computer often?  I don't and when I do its on wheels and it simply rolls out. 

FOR ME...and I suspect a few others, the size and configuration of the new Mac Pro are nothing more than style over substance.  I have nothing against style and Apple does style really well, but exactly what problem has this new form factor solved anyway?

Clearly its a fast machine, at least the 12 core benchmarks anyways.  It will be interesting to see how a 4 or 6 core stack up against Haswells...

An we have not even touched on the ridiculous concept of bonding the graphics cards to the chassis.

Anyways I'm done venting. If it fits your needs than go for it.
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Josh-H

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2013, 02:37:34 am »

Does anybody know then the new pegasus will become available for order?

Thank you.

cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, I believe Promise have said it will be available before the new Mac Pro - so expect late November / early December.
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Lee Rentz

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2013, 08:14:35 am »

I replaced my venerable Mac Pro with a Mac Mini earlier this year, using an external RAID and other backup disks. After successfully using this system, I see absolutely no reason to go back to the old-fashioned tower. Thunderbolt units can be daisy-chained, so the cord tangle isn't any worse than before. With the Mac Mini, it can easily sit on top of my desk, so I don't have to crawl underneath the desk to plug in a USB cable. I agree that for someone who wants to mess around with cards and configurations, Windows would be better. For most of us, not so much. I LOVE the idea of a compact and extraordinarily powerful unit.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Promise Thunderbolt 2 Chassis's for new Mac Pro
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2013, 09:16:23 am »

I replaced my venerable Mac Pro with a Mac Mini earlier this year, using an external RAID and other backup disks. After successfully using this system, I see absolutely no reason to go back to the old-fashioned tower. Thunderbolt units can be daisy-chained, so the cord tangle isn't any worse than before. With the Mac Mini, it can easily sit on top of my desk, so I don't have to crawl underneath the desk to plug in a USB cable. I agree that for someone who wants to mess around with cards and configurations, Windows would be better. For most of us, not so much. I LOVE the idea of a compact and extraordinarily powerful unit.

i have a mini sitting on my desk too, and the tangle of cords is really not attractive.  And I have no external disks aside from the NAS. Want a personally configured computer?  Why does it have to be windows? Has a problem been solved by the new Pro?  As  plugging in a usb, its far more work on the Mini than the tower, and the same will be true for the Pro.  After successfully using this Mini, I always power up the tower for production...

Different strokes for different folks. 
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