Pictorico Hi Gloss Film and Ilford Prestige Smooth Hi Gloss poor durability.

[dgberg]

Purchased an Epson 1430 that has the Claria dye ink set for a client that wanted hi gloss prints.
The initial prints on Pictorico were just stunning to say the least. Have not seen any prints from my pigment printers that even come close.
Now the bad part. Through the mounting process I must have damaged a half dozen or more. Breath on it and they scratch. Wore cotton gloves and to no avail you cannot touch the surface period.
Got a tiny bit of moisture on one,tried to wipe it off,ruined. Nice big smudge.
Someone suggested the Ilford Prestige Smooth Hi Gloss so I ordered a 24" roll and it is just beautiful when printed except for its lack of durability. Has a very slight metallic cast the Pictorico does not have.
Same client same mounts. 3/8" gator with Seals print mount ultra. Cannot run it through the laminator as it ruins the print. Gives it sort of a mottled look. Not sure why,it may have something to do with its film base.
So I mount it by hand with cotton gloves on and that works really nice.
I just ordered some of Jon Cones CL inks thinking that might help with my lack of durability issues. Nope same problem.
So whats up? I did a google search on dye inks and read review after review talking about scratch and moisture resistance.
This has to be a media issue that the dyes and film are just not compatible. Heck if I cannot get these through the mounting process without damaging them what are my clients going to do with them?
Would love to keep using both of these but just way to many throw aways.
Ideas?

[Mark Lindquist]

Wow - that's a real pain, Dan.  I'm surprised the Ilford hi-gloss didn't work with your inks.

You asked for ideas, so here goes.

Buy a Canon Pixma Pro-100 from Adorama.  After rebate, it will cost you $99.00.  You get a free box of 50 sheets paper so that knocks the cost down even further.  Here's the link:  http://www.adorama.com/ICAPRO100.html

I have bought two of these printers and I got the rebate back in the form of an American Express card with $300.00 on it which I have already used up.  The rebate came back in a few weeks.  I'm applying for the second rebate now.

I've printed on the Ilford gloss and it is definitely tough, tough, tough.

I'm thinking there is a difference between the Epson dye inks and the Canon inks, if the print is not durable coming from the Epson.

I have actually used a little water on a rag to clean up a smudge that got on the print near the border and I rubbed quite hard and it came off and did not damage the print that was printed on Canon 13 x 19 Pro Semi-Gloss.  Talk about tough.

The idea may sound far-fetched, Dan, to buy a printer just to experiment with, but if you do the math, with the special they've got going right now, you could try the system, try using pictorio or Canon's gloss, or the Ilford Gloss or all three and after the job be waaaaaay ahead if it works, and out only time and a little money if it doesn't.

At this point, it sounds like you don't have much to lose, and figuring the math on this, you won't lose much, and may gain a firm solution.

Mark at Ardenburg mentioned in a post that he got one of the Pixma Pro-100's and is doing longevity experiments, and said he is definitely impressed with it.

So there's my idea.  I had hoped the Ilford would work for you, but I guess the Epson system didn't like it.  Sorry about that.

-Mark

[dgberg]

Thanks Mark,

Both papers are really so beautiful,it is a shame.
Just cannot believe the Epson Claria and Cone CL inks are the issue.
Especially when they both claim their toughness.
The only thing I had not thought of previously is possible drying issues.
Both of these were handled and mounted within several hours. Too soon?
Thanks for the referral as the Ilford paper is really nice.
I am going to try several prints with the 9900 and see how they look and hold up.

[Randy Carone]

Dan, my guess is the media you printed on is not engineered for dye ink. A paper with a swellable coating is the best type for dye ink. Most papers will work with dye ink but some have a coating that can protect the colorant such as the one Mark mentioned in his post. IJ Technologies may still have some media designed for dye ink. The Pictorico media is really nice. Have you tried printing on it with pigment ink and laminating with a thin, high gloss laminate? The result is similar to Cibachrome.

[dgberg]

Good to hear from you. Really miss talking to you when calling the store.
 I know I read somewhere that the Pictorico film has great results with dye inks.
On a scale of 1 to 10 the dye on Pictorico is a 10 with regards to look.
Pigment on Pictorico is about a 4.
Quite a difference if you have never seen it.
About a year ago I purchased a roll of the polyester hi gloss laminate to try over photo chrome metallic and Pictorico film but it was way too hard to work with. Big time static issues.
Hate to keep repeating myself but the reviews say excellent scratch and moisture resistance with dye ink on Pictorico.
I am going to do a test over the weekend with dye on different papers and see what does hold up.

[MHMG]

Any polymer coatings on a PET base sheet like the Pictorico film are always going to be pretty sensitive to scratches and abrasion. That said, pigmented inks tend to sit on top and form a kind of new top coating, if you will, while all dyes are going to diffuse into the ink receptor layer. Hence, dyes have no way of providing any additional abrasion resistance, whereas the polymer encapsulated pigments can to varying degrees provide a posslble improvement in scratch and abrasion resistance, albeit it may only be marginal improvement.  I recall that Canon actually made a selling point out of "improved scratch and abrasion resistance" of the Canon Lucia EX pigment used in the iPF8300/8400 set compared to the previous Lucia set used in the ipF 8100, and on certain glossy and luster papers the improvement was definitely noticeable by endusers. However, the fact that pigment sit on top and dyes don't also explains why dyes don't cause bronzing and differential gloss problem like pigments.

Dan, I'm a bit reluctant to suggest trying a low viscosity coating like Premier Print Shield or Hahnemuhle Protective Spray (rumored to be the same product) because they can be a real PITA to apply, but if you get the knack of dirt and streak free application, the yield issues with achieving a clean spray coating on each print are probably not going to be as big a problem as you now have if they indeed reduce the extreme fragility of the prints that you are now experiencing. So, you might want to give the low viscosity acrylic spray idea a try, but I should also warn that you will also need to check the color gamut compatibility with the dye set. Typically Print Shield, HN protective, etc will boost color gamut with pigments by achieving deeper blacks, etc., but with some dyes I've seen it go the other way. The solvent interacts with the dyes and can cause some further dye migration that in turn leaves duller not more vibrant color. It's also not across the board. It might affect, for example, the magenta dye,but not the cyan, or yellow,etc. It really is dependent on the individual dye formulations in the ink set. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of this dye/solvent spray compatibility issue yet, but just a heads up that it could happen, so be sure to check your before/after output carefully if you try this approach.

good luck on your project.

Mark McCormick-Goodhart
http://Http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[dgberg]

Excellent reply Mark.
I was considering trying Clearstar FA 2000 a solvent coating I have had success with in the past.
The prints are so pristine and sharp out of the printer I figured I would only ruin it with a coating.
Even as a professional finisher it is hard to put a coating on a hi gloss paper and have it look like you have not coated it. Time for more experiments.
Thank you.
Dan

[Paul Ozzello]

Excellent reply Mark.
I was considering trying Clearstar FA 2000 a solvent coating I have had success with in the past.
The prints are so pristine and sharp out of the printer I figured I would only ruin it with a coating.
Even as a professional finisher it is hard to put a coating on a hi gloss paper and have it look like you have not coated it. Time for more experiments.
Thank you.
Dan

How about facemounting to plexiglass ?

[dgberg]

Have tried it Paul and that is the fix if I was better at it.
All set up for it here with 2 laminators and just cannot get regular satisfactory results.
I spent 4 hours on this job attempting to face mount and threw away 3 prints before I made to to the point of mounting to plexi and 2 more that I mounted. Dirt specs in them all. 
Have 2 more things to try before I give up on face mounting completely.
Both mentioned by Wayne Fox,an air filtration system and the anti static gun.
Just about the only product I do not offer for sale on my website.
So under glass or face mounted is probably the answer.

[MHMG]

Excellent reply Mark.
I was considering trying Clearstar FA 2000 a solvent coating I have had success with in the past.
The prints are so pristine and sharp out of the printer I figured I would only ruin it with a coating.
Even as a professional finisher it is hard to put a coating on a hi gloss paper and have it look like you have not coated it. Time for more experiments.
Thank you.
Dan

The ClearStar FA 2000 has somewhat higher viscosity than Premier Print Shield (though still quite low compared to most paints and varnishes). That makes is a better choice for media like IGFS that seem to suck up the solvent like crazy and thus need at least three coats with Print Shield. For your objective, the Print Shield will probably come closer to the "doesn't look coated" appearance. It is so low viscosity that I often joke it is like buying "solvent in a can", but of course, the small amount of acrylic polymer contained in the product does indeed form a thin coating. In fact, this ultra low viscosity is part of the challenge with Print Shield when spraying. If you spray too quickly you get a kind of semigloss overspray effect, but if you spray too slowly, running occurs and tiny sags in the coating remain after drying. There's a fine line between moving too fast and moving too slow, so it definitely requires patience when trying to coat glossy inkjet media with Print Shield. Yet when you get it right, I think there's a good chance it can achieve the high gloss/no glass aesthetic your client is looking for.

cheers,
Mark

[Paul Ozzello]

Have tried it Paul and that is the fix if I was better at it.
All set up for it here with 2 laminators and just cannot get regular satisfactory results.
I spent 4 hours on this job attempting to face mount and threw away 3 prints before I made to to the point of mounting to plexi and 2 more that I mounted. Dirt specs in them all. 
Have 2 more things to try before I give up on face mounting completely.
Both mentioned by Wayne Fox,an air filtration system and the anti static gun.
Just about the only product I do not offer for sale on my website.
So under glass or face mounted is probably the answer.

What a nightmare. It might be ink/media compatibility as you say. I've printed on the Ilford Smooth High gloss with my Pro9000 and found it pretty durable. I think I even ran a print under water... If the Canon is that cheap I might give Mark's suggestion a try, the prints shouldn't be THAT fragile. If you facemount on plexi the texture is less of a concern, so you might try printing on one of Epson's papers which should resolve any ink/media compatibility issues, but that won't fix any dust problems...

Keep us posted on your progress !