Paper (and settings) for Canon 9000mk2 dye ink + Canson Baryta debugging

[hjulenissen]

Sorry for creating a topic that can be found a gazillion times on google. I guess nothing beats tailor-made information :-)

In short: what paper do you recommend for my printer? I have worked my way through:
1. Canson-infinity fine art photo discovery pack
2. Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl 310gsm
3. Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique
4. Canson Photosatin premium RC
5. Canon Photopaper pro platinium

Even though I observe large differences, I have a hard time making up my mind. I believe that:
0. I print a few images for myself and friends. Quality and ease-of-use is a lot more important than cost.
1. I want a paper that is available in A2 (for cutting 14"x23")
2. Large gamut and deep blacks tend to be my thing. Very matte and highly structured paper is not.
3. The fact that I have a dye printer may affect choice of paper.
4. All Ilford papers have appeared as "14 days delivery" over here, are they in some kind of trouble?

I am quite disappointed with the Canson Infinity Baryta paper, even though initial hopes were high (I liked the structure of the unprinted paper). It seems that (using their profile for my printer) the gamut is quite small (at least in the greens) and black levels leaves something to be desired. This seems to conflict with most other peoples opinion about that paper, so could it be that they either messed up their profile, or (more likely) that I am messing up settings?

Please see the attachements. Screenshots of Lightroom rendering on a sRGB-calibrated display with Canson Baryta vs Canon Platinium, with and without gamut warning. I am sure that color experts would shake their heads at showing color differences this way, but it is the best that I can think of. It seems that the foliage cannot be rendered faithfully by either paper (out of gamut). But the Canon softproof offers what seems like more saturation and deeper blacks. This seems to reflect what I am seeing in print.

-h

[hjulenissen]

Does my printer settings appear to be ok?

http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/canon.asp?prm=pro9000ll

Paper Name                             Profile Name                     Media Settings
Baryta Photographique 310gsm   cifa_pro9000ll_baryta310.icc   Photo Paper Pro Platinum

[hugowolf]

There aren’t that many papers around any more that are specifically designed to give their best results with dye inks. They are mostly optimized for pigment ink. It could just be that the Canson baryta doesn’t work well with your inkset.

Although the amount of image that is out of gamut would point to using perceptual, have you tried both perceptual and relative colorimetric rendering intents?

It could also be that the profile isn’t great – it happens sometimes. You could try getting a custom profile made; they are not expensive. You could try the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk profile with the Canson – the two papers are almost identical in many ways.

If you want to look at gamut before buying paper, then compare profiles with something like ICCView http://www.iccview.de/content/view/2/4/lang,en/ (You will need to install a VRML plugin for it to work.)

Brian A

[hjulenissen]

There aren’t that many papers around any more that are specifically designed to give their best results with dye inks. They are mostly optimized for pigment ink. It could just be that the Canson baryta doesn’t work well with your inkset.

Although the amount of image that is out of gamut would point to using perceptual, have you tried both perceptual and relative colorimetric rendering intents?

I have tried soft-proofing both (poor results), but only printed perceptual.

You could try the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk profile with the Canson – the two papers are almost identical in many ways.

That was a good idea, however, it appears that they don't have a profile for gold fibre silk and the 9000mk2. They do for the 9500mk2 (pigment) and pro-100 (dye), though.

Is it possible that the profile is for the 8-bit driver, and that the 16-bit XPS driver somehow is different?

If you want to look at gamut before buying paper, then compare profiles with something like ICCView http://www.iccview.de/content/view/2/4/lang,en/ (You will need to install a VRML plugin for it to work.)

Thank you. Will try it when I am at the windows box (VRML seems to be broken for OSX). Can I upload printer ICC profiles and compare them graphically?

-h

[hugowolf]

Can I upload printer ICC profiles and compare them graphically?

Yes, 3D, and rotate them to see exactly where the gamuts match and where one exceeds the other.

Brian A

[hjulenissen]

Thanks a lot for your help.

I was unable to load the profiles of my Canson paper (profiles are 5114KB, the website allows no more than 3500KB). I also was unable to analyze my x-rite display profiles as they are ICCv4.

I was, however, able to analyze the profile of ILFORD Galerie Prestige Smooth Pearl (that I have had ok results with) with the Adobe RGB color space. If I am interpreting the plot correctly, it seems that:
1. The gamut volume of that paper/ink combination is 710785/1311023 that of Adobe rgb
2. The print exceeds Adobe RGB in C, M and Y, but lags behind in R, G and Purple(?)

Is there any possibility to read out the maximum and minimum brightness? (is that dmax/dmin?)

I assume that if I could have read the Baryta paper, it would have been generally smaller. Is this due to the paper absorbing ink/altering its properties, or is it that the profile instructs the printer to avoid having to much ink so as to avoid excess ink all over the place?

-h

[RachelleK]

Thanks a lot for your help.

I was unable to load the profiles of my Canson paper (profiles are 5114KB, the website allows no more than 3500KB). I also was unable to analyze my x-rite display profiles as they are ICCv4.

-h

If you are using a Mac have you tried the Colorsync program under utilities?

[rgs]

With my Canon PRO 100, which is, I believe, the successor to your printer, I have been pleased with these papers:

• Canon Pro Luster
• Canon Pro Pro Platinum
• Ilford Galerie Prestige Smooth Gloss
• Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Fiber Silk
• Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Mono Silk (B&W only)
• Canson RC Satin
• Canson Gloss and Hi Gloss
• Canson Platine (B&W only)
• Canson Rag Photographique
• Red River Arctic Pro Satin

Particular disappointments have been Canon Semi-Gloss (has a kind of veiled look) and Canson Baryta which has, as you noted, a rather small gamut and dull look to it. I have tried a few other Baryta or Fiber type Glossy papers and found them equally disappointing except for the two Ilford ones in the list above. The other exception is Canson Platine which doesn't work well in color but sings out gloriously in B&W.

Having now gotten used to my new PRO 100, I intend to use primarily Canon Pro Luster, Ilford Smooth Gloss and Canson RC Satin. I will also have on hand Canson Rag Photographique and Canson Platine. While pigment printers work well on fine art and rag papers, it is harder to find good rag or baryta papers for dye inks. On the other hand, dye works really well on RC papers.

After such long windedness on my part, may I suggest that you give up on the Canson Baryta. If you're printing B&W, try Canson Platine or Ilford Gold Mono Silk. If you are printing color and don't want an RC paper, try Ilford Gold Fiber Silk or Canson Rag Photographique.

BTW, I had one piece of Canson Canvas. The PRO 100 nailed it in a single print and it looked really nice. Don't know if you (or I) want canvas, but it's nice to know that canvas (at least Canson's) works well.

Sorry for the long post.

[hjulenissen]

...
I intend to use primarily Canon Pro Luster, Ilford Smooth Gloss and Canson RC Satin
...
After such long windedness on my part, may I suggest that you give up on the Canson Baryta. If you're printing B&W, try Canson Platine or Ilford Gold Mono Silk. If you are printing color and don't want an RC paper, try Ilford Gold Fiber Silk or Canson Rag Photographique.

Availability of A2 over here is a bit spotty.

Interpreting your advice, I am looking at these papers:
Canson PhotoSatin Premium RC 270gsm A2
Canson Photo HighGloss Premium RC 315gsm A2
ILFORD GALERIE Prestige SMOOTH PEARL A2 310G
ILFORD GALERIE Prestige SMOOTH GLOSS A2 310G

Canson Platine Fibre Rag 310gsm A2 seems like a good option for B&W, though price is a bit stiff

Sorry for the long post.

Your post was spot-on, thank you.

regards
h

[hjulenissen]

If you are using a Mac have you tried the Colorsync program under utilities?

This worked, thanks. Not quite sure how to read the plots. In the attachement, I am comparing the ICC profile for the suspect Baryta paper to a glossy paper. Can one see from this plot that the Baryta is "undersaturated" and "low-contrast"?

The Baryta white/black point is reported as:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.904 0.939 0.785]
[X,Y,Z] = [0.011 0.011 0.014]

The glossy white/black point is reported as:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.842 0.866 0.798]
[X,Y,Z] = [0.004 0.005 0.006]

I seem to remember that the "Y" in XYZ is luminance. Does this mean that the Baryta paper (when used with my printer) has a DR of 0.939/0.011 = 85:1, while the glossy paper har a DR of 0.866/0.005 = 173:1? And more relevant to my observations, that the blacks of the glossy paper (assuming diffuse room light) will be 0.005/0.011=0.45 times as bright?

-h

[hugowolf]

Particular disappointments have been ... Canson Baryta which has, as you noted, a rather small gamut and dull look to it. I have tried a few other Baryta or Fiber type Glossy papers and found them equally disappointing except for the two Ilford ones in the list above.

Then that would tend to point to an inadequate profile rather than a paper problem. Canson Baryta and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk are almost identical and probably made by the same company.

Are you using canned profiles or custom profiles?

Brian A

[rgs]

Profiles provided by the paper companies. Both Ilford's and Canson's profiles have proven good otherwise.

[hugowolf]

Profiles provided by the paper companies. Both Ilford's and Canson's profiles have proven good otherwise.

It would be interesting to see what a custom profile does for the Canson Baryta. There has been some speculation about the two papers. Ernst Dinkla's spectral analysis of the reflectance of the two show them to be almost identical - so much so that the diffrenences could be purely due to different batches. In the samples I have, the paper base looks a little different and that may cause the slight difference in the suface texture. Or it could be that the inkjet receptive coating causes the slight surface difference.

Brian A

[hjulenissen]

Then that would tend to point to an inadequate profile rather than a paper problem. Canson Baryta and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk are almost identical and probably made by the same company.

These are from the paper-supplied profiles for the pro-100 (since Ilford has no profile for my 9000mk2)
Ilford Gold Fibre Silk 310:
Photo Paper Plus Semi-gloss
Color correction:None (Color Mode) (for Canon printers)
n_GPGFS13_CANpro-100_PPPSn.icc
white point:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.901 0.935 0.765]
black point:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.011 0.012 0.012]

Canson Baryta Photographique:
Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss
CIFA_pixmapro100_baryta310.icc
white point:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.911 0.945 0.789]
black point:
[X,Y,Z] = [0.014 0.014 0.014]

-h